Los Estados Unidos

[Gabber]

Spent five days in Orlando with my children. We had a great time at Disney and Universal. Line up's were a bit ridiculous at times but in the end it was worth it.

Understanding that this is a tourist town (trap) i still cannot get over how many spanish people were there. In every restaurant, in our hotel, in the gift shops etc...almost all Spanish.

Now...not complaining because some of the women were freaking hot but it became evident that a lot of these people working in the shops, restaurants and taxis had very limited english. This did not go unnoticed by a few tourists I met from Ohio and New Jersey who were very vocal about their wish to be served in English.

While waiting outside for my kids who were in a Harry Potter thingy ride (not sure what it was) I sat beside a spanish guy visiting from Texas. We spoke for a good hour because of the lineups for this particular ride. Let's just say that the racial divide is not a white thing. Omg, he went on and on about afro americans. I don't condone this crap but I was enthralled to listen because of the hate that spewed from his mouth. Then when we were close to finished he looked at me and said...you're not American are you. I said no and he said it made sense because no gringo would sit with him for so long. He laughed, shook my hand and left.

Americanos have some work to do in certain parts of the country

[yankee]

Americanos have some work to do in certain parts of the country

When the issue the weapons we will:biggrin:

[KeenanRocks]

Hell Its tough even being white in the South now.. Unfortunately I am the new Minority But I will say the Mexicans are so much easier to get along with than the blacks,plain and simple...

[CMM7]

Very true words Bobby, one must spend some time to understand the enormity of the problem.
often in my work, posts, I have been called a racest, when the reality, I speak of illegal immigrants, referring to the bulk of which are from Mexico, that is here in the South western US, other areas have to deal with illegal immigrants from other countrys. Example, Seattle, deals with a illegal population from the orient, some of the big cities in the east coast deal with illegals from Europe, western and eastern.
Seems every ethnic origen has its racists.
And it is a problem, for all of us.

[Voobrazheniye]

If I recall history correctly, one of the major factors in the fall of Rome was illegal immigration. It started with importing slaves, then supplementing their armies with barbarian mercenaries, and then permitting more and more migrant groups (the Goths and Vandals for example) to move in and "settle" in the fringes of the empire.

Eventually, the barbarians outnumbered the Romans - who had become decadent and morally weak - and wanted more. They sacked Rome in 410 and before long had taken over everything.

History DOES repeat itself.

[brown-raider]

Spent five days in Orlando with my children. We had a great time at Disney and Universal. Line up's were a bit ridiculous at times but in the end it was worth it.

Understanding that this is a tourist town (trap) i still cannot get over how many spanish people were there. In every restaurant, in our hotel, in the gift shops etc...almost all Spanish.

Now...not complaining because some of the women were freaking hot but it became evident that a lot of these people working in the shops, restaurants and taxis had very limited english. This did not go unnoticed by a few tourists I met from Ohio and New Jersey who were very vocal about their wish to be served in English.

While waiting outside for my kids who were in a Harry Potter thingy ride (not sure what it was) I sat beside a spanish guy visiting from Texas. We spoke for a good hour because of the lineups for this particular ride. Let's just say that the racial divide is not a white thing. Omg, he went on and on about afro americans. I don't condone this crap but I was enthralled to listen because of the hate that spewed from his mouth. Then when we were close to finished he looked at me and said...you're not American are you. I said no and he said it made sense because no gringo would sit with him for so long. He laughed, shook my hand and left.

Americanos have some work to do in certain parts of the countryThis is a very interesting topic to me as I have I guess I have a somewhat different prospective on this than most because first of all I am hispanic on my fathers side all beit a 5th generation American, my mother is Italian and Portugues, I speak Spanish fluently but only because I took 4 years of Spanish, we never spoke any spanish at home. Even though I am of hispanic decent more specific Mexican/ yaki Indian on my fathers side, I am an American first, I hold no allegance to Mexico. I don't appreciate illegal aliens no matter what color disrespecting our borders. I believe english should be made our official language, no biligual education, no printing ballots in any other language but english ect.. also make people take an english proficiency test when they apply for a job, this would force people to learn english, and stop employers from having incompetent people employed. It seems that people who don't speak english are allowed by employers and their community to live everyday life without having to learn english.
As far as the hatred of the guy towards blacks well I have an oppinion on that also, you se in many cases hispanics and blacks grew up in many of the same neighborhoods, so naturally hispanics stay together as a group as the blacks do, and it seems there are always conflicts between these two races adding to the animosity for each other, well after growing up this way with conflict after conflict you develope a hatred towards each other, this is what happened in my case at the age of 11 I was jumped and beat up by 3 blacks that were all at least 15-17 for no other reason other than I was hispanic, so naturally I developed even moreof a hatred and a distrust of these people, and of course my cousins retaliated, and so on..... frank

[brown-raider]

Hell Its tough even being white in the South now.. Unfortunately I am the new Minority But I will say the Mexicans are so much easier to get along with than the blacks,plain and simple...I have never had problems getting along with white people, my family is made up of white and latin people, since are families are mixed.:dirol:

[brown-raider]

If I recall history correctly, one of the major factors in the fall of Rome was illegal immigration. It started with importing slaves, then supplementing their armies with barbarian mercenaries, and then permitting more and more migrant groups (the Goths and Vandals for example) to move in and "settle" in the fringes of the empire.

Eventually, the barbarians outnumbered the Romans - who had become decadent and morally weak - and wanted more. They sacked Rome in 410 and before long had taken over everything.

History DOES repeat itself. could there be something to be said also about the immigrants legal and illegal who come into our country with an animosity towards our country but yet want to be here to use the country for all it's benefits but at the same time would love to see the country crumble, so of course they never buy into being Ameican or a patriot, but rather being only a leech, hell there are many born here who hate this country also, I beleive there are many blacks and some hispanics who think this way...

[brown-raider]

Another thing about some immigrants comming into another country is that many times the criminal element that comes in becomes a burden, to there adopted country. At times there religion they bring in becomes a pain in the butt, because they want everyone else toaccomidate there religion instead of them being respectful of others religion, this is happening not only here but all over europe...

[Voobrazheniye]

could there be something to be said also about the immigrants legal and illegal who come into our country with an animosity towards our country but yet want to be here to use the country for all it's benefits but at the same time would love to see the country crumble, so of course they never buy into being Ameican or a patriot, but rather being only a leech, hell there are many born here who hate this country also, I beleive there are many blacks and some hispanics who think this way...

I think Rome had a similar problem. They USED foreigners, which bred discontent, and they didn't try to truly assimilate people from outside, make them FEEL Roman, which left them with no allegiance to Rome.

Instead of bringing in the best and brightest of the non-Romans and truly making them Roman, they just brought in those they could "use" the best: slaves to do low-level jobs and - especially - mercenaries to supplement their armies. The brighter ones who did come in and learn high skills were never really assimilated into Roman society, and some of them eventually went off to lead their own people in revolt. Meanwhile, Rome's crime rate soared, and the society just generally spiraled downhill.

The "barbarians" saw Rome as a cruel master, a place of great riches, a place they wanted to be, but a place they also wanted to destroy. Again... it sounds familiar.

[pouffe]

If I recall history correctly, one of the major factors in the fall of Rome was illegal immigration. It started with importing slaves, then supplementing their armies with barbarian mercenaries, and then permitting more and more migrant groups (the Goths and Vandals for example) to move in and "settle" in the fringes of the empire.

Eventually, the barbarians outnumbered the Romans - who had become decadent and morally weak - and wanted more. They sacked Rome in 410 and before long had taken over everything.

History DOES repeat itself.


I red entirely your post, i can conclude then that in your sentence "if i recall...illegal immigration" the word illegal has nosense!

Were the conquests of Roma legal?


The history of humanity is a long list of migrations...and fights. Over seas and oceans.

[yankee]

I red entirely your post, i can conclude then that in your sentence "if i recall...illegal immigration" the word illegal has nosense!

Were the conquests of Roma legal?

As legal as the French conquests were. (and the Portuguese conquests!!)

[Lonewolf74]

If I recall history correctly, one of the major factors in the fall of Rome was illegal immigration. It started with importing slaves, then supplementing their armies with barbarian mercenaries, and then permitting more and more migrant groups (the Goths and Vandals for example) to move in and "settle" in the fringes of the empire.

Eventually, the barbarians outnumbered the Romans - who had become decadent and morally weak - and wanted more. They sacked Rome in 410 and before long had taken over everything.

History DOES repeat itself.

I am sorry Paul but, like Pouffe said, there was no "illegal immigration" in Roma. Actually most generals, politicians, etc from the middle and late roman periods werent even from Lacium but from conquered regions like both Gauls (transalpine and cisalpine), Hispania, Greece, Illirya, etc...
The reason why Rome fell was because the main instrument of its power, their army, became the instrument of generals instead of an instrument of the central power being that the republic or the empire.
Also several social changes exempted more and more the core of the legionarri army from service...and that was the roman citizen and the conquered italic tribes.
if you add to that the split up of the empire in two and the later adoption of one single oficial religion religion (christianism) that left no space for the caleidoscope of beliefs that the roman empire represented and you have the inevitable fall of the empire.
In such a weakened state it was no match for the ...so called barbarians but Roma 's core had been rotten for a while.

History does repeat itself quite often but thats not the case IMO.

Vale!

V.

[Lonewolf74]

As legal as the French conquests were. (and the Portuguese conquests!!)

True...mostly motivated by trade though, whereas rome conquests were quite often due to personal ambition of one man

[Voobrazheniye]

I red entirely your post, i can conclude then that in your sentence "if i recall...illegal immigration" the word illegal has nosense!

Were the conquests of Roma legal?

Excellent point! And I agree with you. You might say it's the "reap what you sew" principle.

Rome conquered lands all through Europe and around the Mediterranean to enrich itself and to "control" outside forces that might threaten Rome itself. The Romans acted in their own self-interests, of course - as almost all civilizations have done throughout history and do still. The "legality" of such acts, especially by today's standards, are appropriately questioned.

But it's the fate of empires, it seems, to first conquer, enslave, use and abuse those it conquers, only to eventually be overwhelmed by them.

When Rome conquered lands, they made the residents of those lands subjects, but not Roman citizens. That's sort of what empires do. In Europe, they conquered the Celtic Gauls in France, Celtic Bretons in Britain, other Celtic groups in Iberia, and various Germanic tribes to the northeast of Gaul. At first they were trying to keep the Germanic "barbarians" out of their conquered Gaul, but later drove further to conquer and subjugate them as well.

And the same kind of thing played out to the east, in the Balkans, Greece, and the nearby Middle East. And, of course, they conquered Egypt and the lands that Egypt (and Carthage) had conquered before that.

So these people were subjects, but not citizens. They brought a number of these people into Rome itself as slaves and workers, but were not pleased to see more of them come in on their own because of hardships in their own lands (some of which were caused by the Romans themselves). I suppose to the Romans, these people might have seemed as "illegal immigrants," although as subjects of Rome, they probably were not as "illegal" as others. But probably they were very unwanted by the Romans themselves.

The real "illegals" in the Roman scenario were the hoards of others who came later from outside of the empire into the conquered lands: the various Goth tribes, Vandals and, of course, the Huns. Goths and Vandals came into the eastern parts of the empire seeking safety from the Huns, but they were not welcome even in the far reaches of the empire, let alone in Rome itself.

The Roman government tried to keep the earlier Germanic tribes happy by keeping the Goths out, but then made deals with the Goths to fight against the Huns (with whom they had earlier made deals for other assistance). The Goths and Vandals were, for a time, completely unwanted anywhere in the empire.

But ironically, it was the Goths who gathered an army that was eventually able to sack Rome itself. The Goths, Vandals and others then overran the empire and eventually settled various areas of the empire, changing it forever.

(Jeeezzz.... I'm starting to sound like a damned history professor)

[Calibret]

I don't like Negroes or Hispanics, as soon as they start to take over an area
the quality of life goes down. Poverty and crime escalate.
It's not prejudice, it's a fact.
Don't think so? Look at Africa and Latin America, shit holes mostly. And why
is that. Because of the people that live there maybe?

[Voobrazheniye]

I am sorry Paul but, like Pouffe said, there was no "illegal immigration" in Roma. Actually most generals, politicians, etc from the middle and late roman periods werent even from Lacium but from conquered regions like both Gauls (transalpine and cisalpine), Hispania, Greece, Illirya, etc...
The reason why Rome fell was because the main instrument of its power, their army, became the instrument of generals instead of an instrument of the central power being that the republic or the empire.
Also several social changes exempted more and more the core of the legionarri army from service...and that was the roman citizen and the conquered italic tribes.
if you add to that the split up of the empire in two and the later adoption of one single oficial religion religion (christianism) that left no space for the caleidoscope of beliefs that the roman empire represented and you have the inevitable fall of the empire.
In such a weakened state it was no match for the ...so called barbarians but Roma 's core had been rotten for a while.

History does repeat itself quite often but thats not the case IMO.

Vale!

V.

Again, good points. Ahhh... these are the kinds of conversations we used to have in this forum: we could disagree, cite each other's good and bad points, but not get personal and smarmy about it. I hope it's a sign of things to come.

Anyway, it seems to me that the fall of Rome was a mix of many factors, as it usually is with empires. Those you mention are true, of course. And the immigration thing was an important factor as well. But even that was - ultimately - Rome's fault.

It's interesting to note several factors in Rome's downfall that seem to have real parallels in the U.S. today:

- Abandoned the rule of law.

- Abandoned a true republican (small "R") government for one that was more imperial and based on cults of personality. We have been hearing about the "imperial presidency" in the U.S. for decades, and if you look back you can really see its development for more than 100 years. Power is more and more consolidated in the federal government, especially in the executive, through cultish persuasion of the voters.

- Overextended itself militarily.

- Subjugated too many other people and made bitter enemies of them.

- Overspent (the government) and had to go into debt and then raise taxes to cover their largess.

- Lost sight of their sense of human values, became decadent, lawless and had a "do whatever pleases you" mentality.

- Lost their original traditions... the things that bound them together as a people.

- Were overrun by people who were of different cultures and languages (and who hated them).

Have I missed anything? :scratch_one-s_head:

[pouffe]

As legal as the French conquests were. (and the Portuguese conquests!!)
i agree and so the britts and spanishes ones!

[Voobrazheniye]

i agree and so the britts and spanishes ones!

... and the Dutch and German and Russian and Swedish and Japanese...

and longer ago... the Chinese and Mongol...

and the Mayan and Incan and Aztec and Iroquois and Lakota...

[CMM7]

So, as written by all above, life goes on, and the planet still spins, nations evolve or collapse.
Personally, I liked my old buddies words,"I'm not prejudiced, I hate every one equally".;)
In my social circle, I am the one out, as a 1/2 blood, my best friend is 3rd generation Mexican, several white friends, Navajo, Apache, and 1 black guy,(African, he by the way hates American blacks?), we tease each other mercilessly, but stand strong for each other always, and all agree first and for most we are Americans.
Nothing pisses any of us off more then the lazy suck off the system leaches, the folk that sneak around the laws, and the out right criminals.
No matter their race, color, or creed.
As for nationalities, 1 Russian family, 1 Greek family, 1 Swiss family, 2 Iraqi family's, all legal immigrants to America, and all love this country, moved here by choice, came to build a better life, all can point out the short falls of America, and the countrys they left. Every one of these guys have proven they would die for America, not with words, but actions.
We each at one time or another, has been called "brain washed patriots", we laugh. We have been behind the scenes and see just how f*cked up the politicians can be, and how few of them really believe in America, GOD to them is wealth and power.
Yeah America has a long road ahead of it, lots of battles to fight, at home and for those that call on us abroad, as we still are the only successful revolution on this planet, still represent the ideals of personal liberty, and freedom from tyranny.
Just my thoughts, on the subject. :)

[Gabber]

holy crap, you guys know your history. I have to go study now

[Sarah]

I will now place the YouTube video here without any comments (but with the translation of the speech into Russian in case somebody needs more help to understand the content.
Personally, I have noticed (but it is just my viewpoint) that people are becoming more and more intolerant to immigration - it happens all over the world.
Now it is getting even more scary...

XRmgI_WXff0

[Sarah]

The translation of the speech into Russian:

Выступление турецкого посла в Австрии, обвинившего Австрию и австрийцев в том, что турки плохо тут интегрируются, вызвало не утихающую до сих пор волну возмущения в обществе.

Редакция сайта напоминает читателям, что посол Турции в Австрии Кадри Эджвет Тезджан в одном из интервью Die Presse., обвинил австрийские власти в ужесточении миграционной политики и создании барьеров для турецких иммигрантов. «К туркам в Австрии относятся, как к вирусу, а местные власти ничего не делают для того, чтобы помочь 250 тысячам турецких иммигрантов интегрироваться в обществе»


«Местные жители не хотят видеть женщин в платках, – сказал дипломат. – Но в платках нет ничего противозаконного. Не надо нам указывать, каждый сам вправе решать, что носить на голове. Если здесь предоставлена свобода купаться нагишом, то должна быть предоставлена и свобода носить платки». Кроме того, посол отметил, что, если бы в Вене не находились штаб-квартиры ОПЕК, ОБСЕ и других международных организаций, он и дня не оставался бы в Австрии.

Реакция австрийских политиков не заставила себя долго ждать. В частности, депутат австрийского парламента (партия «Союз за лучшее будущее», BZÖ), Эвальд Штадлер, выступил на одном из пленарных заседаний.


Господин федеральный министр, я хочу обратиться с запросом, который касается турецкого посольства. Дословно: «Министр по европейским и иностранным делам должен безотлагательно объявить турецкого посла Эквета Течкана «персоной нон грата» и потребовать его немедленного отзыва и возвращения в Турцию». (Бурные аплодисменты, переходящие в овацию.)

Уважаемые дамы и господа, я не собираюсь демонстрировать, подобно моему коллеге ван дер Беллену, политкорректность, падая на колени и называя этого турка «ваше превосходительство». Нет, дорогие «господа» турки — слово «дамы» я не произношу, всё равно никаких дам в турецком посольстве нет. Так вот, господа, — я начну с убийства. 3 июня 2010 года — совсем недавно, г-н федеральный министр, — в турецком городе Искендерун архиепископу Луиджи Падовезе было нанесено восемь ножевых ранений в область сердца: 26-летний мусульманин Мурат Алтун с криком «Аллах акбар!» («аллах велик») набросился на священника. Архиепископу удалось вырваться, он выбежал на улицу и умолял о помощи, в то время как убийца преследовал его. Никакой помощи священник не получил. Нападавший догнал его и почти отрезал ему голову — она держалась лишь на лоскуте кожи.

С 2008 г. в Турции убито несколько христианских священников. И что вы сказали на это? «Подумаешь, какая драма»? Я прекрасно знаю, дамы и господа (обращается к левым депутатам) — вас эта драма нисколько не волнует! Это же турки — ваши друзья, дамы и господа! Вам должно быть стыдно, вот в чём причина! Именно такой реакции я от вас ожидал. Ваши разговоры о свободе вероисповедания — сплошное ханжество и лицемерие! Когда католическому архиепископу отрезают голову, вы молчите!

А теперь позвольте мне обратиться к господам из турецкого посольства. Я не хочу даже представлять себе, какой вой поднимется, если кто-нибудь тронет пальцем какого-нибудь имама — называть их «священнослужителями» невозможно! Никогда никто ни разу не напал у нас на служителей вашей религии, а у вас, в вашей стране, такое в отношении христианских священников происходит постоянно! Обратите на это внимание, г-н посол!

Вы недовольны тем, что турки плохо интегрируются? Но мы не просим вас посылать нам сюда всяких безграмотных неучей из Анатолии. Ваши исламисты из Анатолии со средневековым мышлением нам тоже не нужны! Существ, которые способны живьём закопать свою 16-летнюю дочь за «внебрачные отношения», оставьте, пожалуйста, себе! Г-жа Мультоннен, не хотите ли вы выразить сочувствие этой девочке, заживо зарытой в землю?! Поскольку она не была католичкой, вам позволяется ей посочувствовать!

(Снова поворачивается к левым) Мы не просили вас посылать их сюда! Турки посылают к нам этих людей, а потом обвиняют нас в том, что они плохо интегрируются! И в это самое время сами турецкие госдеятели говорят им — вы не должны интегрироваться! Эрбакан разъезжает по Европе и заявляет, что «интеграция и ассимиляция — это преступление против турецкого народа!» А известно ли дамам и господам из правящей коалиции, всем этим романтикам толерантности и защитникам прав человека, что в турецком законодательстве существует параграф 301, согласно которому слова посла, буде они сказаны о Турции, а не об Австрии, рассматриваются, как уголовное преступление?! «Умаление турецкой нации, государства, республиканских институтов» ведёт, дамы и господа, к тюремному заключению на срок от 6 мес. до 2 лет.



Это в Турции, чей посол смеет учить нас чему-то! Садитесь в свой «Восточный экспресс» и отправляйтесь в свой Стамбул, в этот ваш «рай мечты», г-н посол! Вам следует знать, что наша страна — это не только романтики-толеранты, но и люди, которым надоело «одностороннее движение за толерантность», вами, г-н посол, столь успешно осёдланное. В Австрии есть политики, которые не позволят вам заниматься подобной эксплуатацией, политики, прислушивающиеся к мнению и голосу народа, на дух не переносящего всю эту безответственную болтовню!

[Sarah]

There are very powerful "aggressive" and very powerful "soft" countries in the world. Austria is obviously one of the "softest" countries, and just imagine the effect of bigotry, if the "wave" started even in the countries like Austria...

[CMM7]

Sarah,
What you wrote, I agree with, a lot of it is based on the current economic conditions around the world. Which has led to bigotry and racism, the down side, some is based on common sense, if a nation has high unemployment, lots of hungry to feed, why let new citizens in?
Also it seems many confuse the legal immigration of individuals, with the illegal ,(or sneaking into a country, sham marriages, "over staying" of visas, etc.).
Lets face it most countrys in the world today have 'migration" problems, who does not want to live in a "better" place, sometimes this is real, sometimes a fantasy.
A lot of countrys are passing new immigration laws, mostly concerned with crime.
the Swiss just passed a new law to deport immigrants that have committed capitol crimes, I read somewhere Russia has a bill about the control of folk coming into the cities from areas of Russia, The US is getting ready to deal with this issue also, in reformed laws about immigration.
The reality is some small nations with major social"nets", welfare programs simply can no longer afford to let folk in.
then add the new terrorist agendas, of infiltration, and killing of innocent people to make a "statement', and we see the beginning of draconian laws to "protect the citizens.
All of this is cause and effect.
my personal thought is its hard on the citizens, that live by the law, that by choice, or happenstance love and want a life with a citizen from another country.
The law is like military discipline, one person mess's up, and all suffer for it.

[Gabber]

wow, that was a powerful video. Anyone who has not seen this should watch it now.

[Gabber]

I have never had problems getting along with white people, my family is made up of white and latin people, since are families are mixed.:dirol:

good to know. My family tree is so pasty white the bath tub is cleaner getting out than going in

[CMM7]

It has always been my thought, that beyond the Ideology of America, what has made this nation great, was our mixed blood, most of those that have come here have worked hard to get here, and never stoped in working to making it the best place to live and raise families.
Sadly we have not always won that battle:(
But most have not, and will not stop fighting for that.

[KeenanRocks]

I would like to know the ethic make up of everyones cities that is posting in this thread, % of white, black, Muslim and so on. I am curious to see:dirol:

[Gabber]

I would like to know the ethic make up of everyones cities that is posting in this thread, % of white, black, Muslim and so on. I am curious to see:dirol:

my home town is predominantly white, probably 90 percent or more

Toronto, on the other hand, is multi ethnic. No idea of the percentages

[KeenanRocks]

I was hoping this would be the current census.. But you can get a idea If Im not mistaken it is 70% Black and less than 30% white.. I know the Hispanic population has really shot up in recent years

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/47/4748000.html


Ten Cities of 100,000 or More with Highest Percentage of Blacks or African Americans, 2000
City Percent
Gary, Ind. 84.0%
Detroit, Mich. 81.6 Wow...
Birmingham, Ala. 73.5
Jackson, Miss. 70.6
New Orleans, La. 67.3%
Baltimore, Md. 64.3
Atlanta, Ga. 61.4
Memphis, Tenn. 61.4
Washington, DC 60.0%
Richmond, Va. 57.2

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Census 2000.


Actually I am in Vicksburg Mississippi which is 30 min outside of Jackson Mississippi.. But it is only temporarily and I am a lifelong Memphian

[CMM7]

The 2007 census in AZ showed: Total pop. 6,432,007.
60.2% anglo/white, 20.8% hispanic/latino, 5,3% american indian, 3.9% afro/black, 2.6% oriental/pacific islanders.
This was from a state agency, was used for ethnic studys. not sure how real it is.

[KeenanRocks]

afro/black, 2.6% wow to me this is shocking- I would of bet it was a lot higher

[CMM7]

wow to me this is shocking- I would of bet it was a lot higher

To be honest i was kinda wondering that also.
But AZ has grown a lot since 2007, and the 3 major ethnic groups here have always been white, Indian, and Mexican, with the percentages changing monthly.
Then add the fact that the state agencies are still somewhat backwards, and much of the Mexican pop. does not want to be counted for obvious reasons.
The city of Phoenix is divided more by economics then race.
growing up here generally indians, and Mexicans are accepted, always some racists, and bigots.
The ranchers, and cowboys never seemed to care what color, long as you worked hard, this attitude changed in the 70's, a lot of the old values got lost.

[Gabber]

To be honest i was kinda wondering that also.
But AZ has grown a lot since 2007, and the 3 major ethnic groups here have always been white, Indian, and Mexican, with the percentages changing monthly.
Then add the fact that the state agencies are still somewhat backwards, and much of the Mexican pop. does not want to be counted for obvious reasons.
The city of Phoenix is divided more by economics then race.
growing up here generally indians, and Mexicans are accepted, always some racists, and bigots.
The ranchers, and cowboys never seemed to care what color, long as you worked hard, this attitude changed in the 70's, a lot of the old values got lost.

Based on what I umm..."viewed" in Orlando I would like more hispanic women in my town

[KeenanRocks]

They are beautiful for sure.. I dated a cocktail waitress from Guatemala and she was a firecracker!! I was the envy of the casino I worked at.. Everyone was trying to ''bag'' her.. :laugh1:

[CMM7]

I think most of the Hispanics you saw in Florida were Cuban, but gotta say, any one that thinks Mexican girls are not beauty's is nuts.
and the add the fact family values rate higher then most places.
If not for the corruption, drug violence, Mexico would rate as one of the top vacation spots of the world, there are some fantastic folk there, and beautiful places, not to mention the girls.

[Voobrazheniye]

Based on what I umm..."viewed" in Orlando I would like more hispanic women in my town

You need to go to Peru, my friend. I don't know what they put in the water, but the girls there have really great, ummm... assets. I'll have to go to the GC to tell my story about Marita.

And it's even better in Chile and Argentina!

Never been to Brazil, but the reputation is that it is the best on the continent.

[Gabber]

You need to go to Peru, my friend. I don't know what they put in the water, but the girls there have really great, ummm... assets. I'll have to go to the GC to tell my story about Marita.

And it's even better in Chile and Argentina!

Never been to Brazil, but the reputation is that it is the best on the continent.

sounds like a topic for Gentlemens Club

[huney]

It is my opinion that the Romans' slide into decadence and hedonism was the root of their downfall. The ruling classes were so busy having a good time that they forgot to mind the store. Much the way as in 18th century France, as well as the US and to some degree, Russia today.

To address direction this thread is taking... cultural diversity, when subsumed in dedicated citizenship (as CMM7 indicates so well), makes for a more interesting and lively population. It is when an immigrant population insists on ignoring the importance of participating in the customs and governance of their adopted country that trouble begins. I was born in a city of many cultures (Cincinnati), my schools were attended by people from all over the world and we all considered ourselves Americans first and then the nationalities of our origins or forebears.

So far as Afro-American blacks... it seems to me that we (primarily white) Americans have done more than our share of guaranteeing that any but the most dedicated effort to assimilate will inevitably fail. First, their introduction to this country was, shall we say... under difficult circumstances. After more than one hundred years of the abuse of slavery, we then proceeded to declare them "free". Hardly. The next hundred years found them faced with innumerable obstacles - no matter the degree of their desire to assimilate they were regularly relegated to, at best, second-class citizenship. When they were not hung by a noose from the nearest tree, they were allowed only the most meager living. When they made any attempt to participate in governance, in education, even in the practice of religion they were shunned, denigrated (ever wonder about the root of that word? (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denigrated)), and generally denied at every turn. Due to the conditions of their importation they were even denied the comfort of knowing from whence they came. "Africa" is hardly an origin. What part of Africa, what tribe, what culture?

No - I do not believe that the cities Keenan mentions are depressed because of their majority black populations. I believe that these cities have majority black populations simply because they have stayed despite deteriorating conditions because they have not the wherewithal to relocate. Those who have the education and the wisdom to do so generally succeed but the balance are, imho, trapped in a cycle. As undereducated and under-nurtured individuals (the welfare system as it was known until recently encouraged poor fathers to leave their families in order to maximize subsidies and taught successive generations of fathers to do the same without communication of the reasoning) they face obstacles the average white American cannot understand. Consider: Blacks are much more likely to attend substandard schools (for however long), are expected to be "stupid", excel in sports (which invariably leads to unrealistic dreams of fame and success only achievable by the very few), and to hold jobs of merely marginal opportunity.

This is not the result of a lack of ability. It is the result of a lack of expectation! It is a lack of hope. Further, this lack of hope fosters susceptibility to the most pervasive elements of our marketing culture. Who is most likely to sacrifice health and harmony for the latest and greatest status symbol Madison Avenue has on offer? The marginally poor Black. To wear clothing or footwear (think Nike in 1990's) is to wear the symbol of affluence and hence, acceptability. It is to borrow fame and fortune - that Holy Grail of American culture... of American hedonism and decadence.

As regards the Latino-Americans in our midst I must say that their sense of family - of connection - is admirable. Their work ethic even more so. The only issue I have with them (as a group) is their resistance to assimilation - to learning the language of their adopted country. To their insistence that accommodations to their reticence be made in all official (educational as well as governmental) communication. In days gone well by, it was customary for immigrants to make at least some attempt to learn the tongue of their new land, if only through the interpretive efforts of their children. With the Latino, it seems to be much less the case.

CMM7 - As for Latinos in Florida, you need to look again (http://socialistworker.org/2010/12/01/bringing-slavery-into-the-open). There are many fewer Cubans than others these days. As a convenient point-of-entry for many Latin-American and Caribbean countries and a major source of employment for those willing to suffer any injustice in exchange for a day's wage, however meager, Florida has become what one in Arizona might think was the new South. Latinos from all over the South American continent, including Mexico and the Caribbean, slave in the fields and toil at the manicured lawns of even the average Floridian. Yes, the majority of these people are illegals, but even so their children, by law, are American citizens and face many of the hurdles of the African-Americans who preceded them.

[brown-raider]

I don't like Negroes or Hispanics, as soon as they start to take over an area
the quality of life goes down. Poverty and crime escalate.
It's not prejudice, it's a fact.
Don't think so? Look at Africa and Latin America, shit holes mostly. And why
is that. Because of the people that live there maybe?hey it is what it is... I don't blame you..... I hate the same things... and statistics don't lie...:Laie_95:

[Lonewolf74]

The 2007 census in AZ showed: Total pop. 6,432,007.
60.2% anglo/white, 20.8% hispanic/latino, 5,3% american indian, 3.9% afro/black, 2.6% oriental/pacific islanders.
This was from a state agency, was used for ethnic studys. not sure how real it is.

It would be much more easier if you guys made only 2 cathegories...
Americans or US citizens and foreigners...
There you go...problem solved....

V.

[Voobrazheniye]

That was a great post, Holly - very perceptive and insightful. And mostly very correct. I didn't use the "quote" function because it was quite a big post, but just a couple of follow-up points.

I think what you said about the black experience in the U.S. is spot-on. One thing you didn't include, however, is the way they and other poor populations have been cynically used by politicians, primarily on the left. Business interests and others on the right might have seen benefit in keeping them in the lowest economic class in years past, but minimum-wage laws, technology and other changes in the way Americans work has altered that.

Since the 1960s, it has been the left that has needed the black population of America to be poor and living on the government dole. The more people who are dependent on the government, the better for those who want government to grow and have more power. Many of these "progressive thinkers" might have genuinely thought they were helping, but by creating the expanded welfare state and removing the incentive to work and improve, they have helped to create just what you described.

Afro-Americans are disproportionately clustered in cities where government policies, union corruption, corporate moves to offshore locations and other factors have wiped out good jobs, turned schools into complete failures and left the people with no hope beyond the next government handout. It's like drugs: the people get hooked on government goodies, and they can't stop. They lose the will to pick themselves up and succeed on their own.

Starting with Johnson's "Great Society" programs in the '60s, the government's handling of poverty in America has been ass-backwards. Instead of lifting people up, they've simply created generations of completely lost Americans.

Again, I agree with what you said about the current influx of Hispanic people. It is especially true that they come to the U.S. unwilling to become American, speak English, etc. Instead, they create their own little communities within communities.

One reason for this is that most of them are in the U.S. illegally, and THAT is my biggest beef. Come legally and be welcomed, come illegally and be very, very unwelcome.

But the fault really does not lie with the illegal aliens themselves. The fault is with the governments of the U.S. and Mexico (primarily) and with U.S. employers who use these people as virtual slave labor, paying far below minimum wage for their work.

In this, my biggest beef is with the U.S. government for having such a weak and ineffective immigration policy. They make it ridiculously difficult for good people, who want to play by the rules, to come to the U.S., but they turn a blind eye to the flood coming across the southern border.

About Florida, I think you are also quite right. I had some Peruvian friends who lived in the Orlando area for a few years before moving to Denver. They said that there were quite a few Peruvians in the area, and they were surprised at how many Mexicans they saw. They also mentioned that they didn't know anyone from Cuba. But maybe Cubans are still more prevalent in Miami.

[brown-raider]

I would like to know the ethic make up of everyones cities that is posting in this thread, % of white, black, Muslim and so on. I am curious to see:dirol:In my city San Jose, California the population breakdown is as follows, white 36% hispanic 30% asian 26% black 3.5% ....... total population 1,100,000people


but 45 minutes north is oakland with a 44% black population and an extremely high crime rate for a relatively small city of 400,000 people it is the 5th most dangerous city's in america

[brown-raider]

I was hoping this would be the current census.. But you can get a idea If Im not mistaken it is 70% Black and less than 30% white.. I know the Hispanic population has really shot up in recent years

http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/47/4748000.html


Ten Cities of 100,000 or More with Highest Percentage of Blacks or African Americans, 2000
City Percent
Gary, Ind. 84.0%
Detroit, Mich. 81.6 Wow...
Birmingham, Ala. 73.5
Jackson, Miss. 70.6
New Orleans, La. 67.3%
Baltimore, Md. 64.3
Atlanta, Ga. 61.4
Memphis, Tenn. 61.4
Washington, DC 60.0%
Richmond, Va. 57.2

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, Census 2000.


Actually I am in Vicksburg Mississippi which is 30 min outside of Jackson Mississippi.. But it is only temporarily and I am a lifelong Memphianand all these cities have a high crime rate, and high murder rate

[huney]

and all these cities have a high crime rate, and high murder rate

These cities have high crime and murder rates not because of the ethnic proportions of their populations but because they are full of desperate and desperately poor people. Keep in mind that these figures reflect those living within the cities, not their predominately white and predominately more affluent suburbs.

[huney]

Bobby - Excuse me, I must ask... Why do you "thank" the posts of both brown-raider and myself? Are their implications not, at their core, in direct opposition?

[Gabber]

Bobby - Excuse me, I must ask... Why do you "thank" the posts of both brown-raider and myself? Are their implications not, at their core, in direct opposition?

the guts to say what is on your minds. simple

[huney]

the guts to say what is on your minds. simple

I can accept that with pleasure.

Thanks for the explanation.

[CMM7]

Huney, thanks I stand corrected, have not been east of the Mississippi, since '80s, and east of the rockies since '90s,(ok, except to fly over, and few landings in Virginia, and DC, on way oversea's.). My uncle was law enforcement in Miami, so that was majority of my experience in Florida. I forget how fast the world changes(ok and how old I am) :)

[KeenanRocks]

not their predominately white and predominately more affluent suburbs.

Also keep in mind the whole reason we have these suburbs is because the city and inner city have been totally ruined by the gangs,drugs,and constant crime. We keep moving further and further out and away from the cities that is why the black population overpowers the white,well that and they know the more kids they have they can get more welfare ,section 8 programs, government benefits, and food stamps.... of course all the venting I do only makes for more stress.. Best thing I can do is also go.. Chrissie Hynde once wrote a song ''My City was gone'' And although my meaning is completely different than hers it still holds true.. Memphis has become a shithole in the worst way....

[CMM7]

ha have to laugh, I spent 2-3 days in Memphis.
one afternoon, was hungry, saw a little home style restaurant, waited to be seated, noticed I was only white guy there, no big deal, food smelled great, waited.
waited, was ignored, hostess seated 2 other people after me, was a gentleman, smiled walked out.
The most prejudices folk I ever met in my life were "african americans", was treated better in Africa, by tribal blacks.
my big prejudice? Meth users, that is the problem of crime in Phx. and most seem to be white, affluent,(premeth), kids,(16-25).

[brown-raider]

and all these cities have a high crime rate, and high murder rateIn this country it seems that hint of criticism towards a minority is veiw automaticaly as hate no matter who is saying it, why isn't what is really affecting black people addressed which is black on black crime, this takes lives, and also something else that is hurting the black community is that 8 of every 10 children are born with out fathers, in the hispanic community it is less 4 out 10 is born with out a father figure in the home, still to high.... children need a father and a mother to look after them. kids in the ghetto end up looking up to the pimps, hustlers, and dope dealers as role models and grow up wanting to make the fast money like all the other punks and they are willing to die for that quick money which makes them very dangerous to the rest of society.... we all have a choice in what we will make of our lives, it's a copout to allows blame peoples circumstances to excuse the crappy choices they make.. I remember a few years ago when the were going to cut back welfare, there was a news story on t.v. were they showed a big black women who had 5 children and no father, they asked her how she would deal with the welfare cut backs, she said she did not know, but that she would steal if she had too but that her kids had to eat, but never once did she say she would look for a job... I don't beleive we are entiteld to anything from the government, but we do have a resposibility to care for our children no matter what color we are...

[brown-raider]

ha have to laugh, I spent 2-3 days in Memphis.
one afternoon, was hungry, saw a little home style restaurant, waited to be seated, noticed I was only white guy there, no big deal, food smelled great, waited.
waited, was ignored, hostess seated 2 other people after me, was a gentleman, smiled walked out.
The most prejudices folk I ever met in my life were "african americans", was treated better in Africa, by tribal blacks.
my big prejudice? Meth users, that is the problem of crime in Phx. and most seem to be white, affluent,(premeth), kids,(16-25).they are some of the most prejudice people especially in there hoods

[brown-raider]

and all these cities have a high crime rate, and high murder rateIn this country it seems that hint of criticism towards a minority is veiw automaticaly as hate no matter who is saying it, why isn't what is really affecting black people addressed which is black on black crime, this takes lives, and also something else that is hurting the black community is that 8 of every 10 children are born with out fathers, in the hispanic community it is less 4 out 10 is born with out a father figure in the home, still to high.... children need a father and a mother to look after them. kids in the ghetto end up looking up to the pimps, hustlers, and dope dealers as role models and grow up wanting to make the fast money like all the other punks and they are willing to die for that quick money which makes them very dangerous to the rest of society.... we all have a choice in what we will make of our lives, it's a copout to allows blame peoples circumstances to excuse the crappy choices they make.. I remember a few years ago when the were going to cut back welfare, there was a news story on t.v. were they showed a big black women who had 5 children and no father, they asked her how she would deal with the welfare cut backs, she said she did not know, but that she would steal if she had too but that her kids had to eat, but never once did she say she would look for a job... I don't beleive we are entiteld to anything from the government, but we do have a resposibility to care for our children no matter what color we are...

[CMM7]

In this country it seems that hint of criticism towards a minority is veiw automaticaly as hate no matter who is saying it, why isn't what is really affecting black people addressed which is black on black crime, this takes lives, and also something else that is hurting the black community is that 8 of every 10 children are born with out fathers, in the hispanic community it is less 4 out 10 is born with out a father figure in the home, still to high.... children need a father and a mother to look after them. kids in the ghetto end up looking up to the pimps, hustlers, and dope dealers as role models and grow up wanting to make the fast money like all the other punks and they are willing to die for that quick money which makes them very dangerous to the rest of society.... we all have a choice in what we will make of our lives, it's a copout to allows blame peoples circumstances to excuse the crappy choices they make.. I remember a few years ago when the were going to cut back welfare, there was a news story on t.v. were they showed a big black women who had 5 children and no father, they asked her how she would deal with the welfare cut backs, she said she did not know, but that she would steal if she had too but that her kids had to eat, but never once did she say she would look for a job... I don't beleive we are entiteld to anything from the government, but we do have a resposibility to care for our children no matter what color we are...

I agree, the kids are the future, we have to teach them life is their choice, they have free will no matter what, or how their circumstances "were".
and yeah our PC culture now, if you say anything folk look at you like you are nuts, cant speak your mind for fear of offending some one, but no matter what a guy says, some one is going to disagree with you, and that is ok.

[Gabber]

... and the Dutch and German and Russian and Swedish and Japanese...

and longer ago... the Chinese and Mongol...

and the Mayan and Incan and Aztec and Iroquois and Lakota...

and those miserable Canadians too

oh wait...only for hockey and maple syrup wars