The Life is...

[Koshka]

http://pit.dirty.ru/dirty/1/2009/11/09/16603-093731-34e58616615e7c2c090e4b46807724c0.png

[Koshka]

I wish all of you rightly understand life.

[Lucker]

If you think Happiness is the key to Life , I am confident that you are going to be badly disappointed . You cannot find it . It will find you - if you are lucky .
It is not a thing and it has no fixed location where it can be viewed , measured or bid for .
It arrives at times and for circumstances that you cannot arrange or prepare for . Unless you train yourself , it can only be remembered after it has happened .

If this is true , your life must be prioritised in other ways . At best you can train yourself to recognise it as it happens . But that is all .
Simply be grateful if it falls on you more than just very occasionally .

As for contentment and satisfaction .
They are different matters altogether . All imo .

[Masichka]

We are creators of our own happiness :) we can create it and live in it every single moment of our life.
And those who are not able to do so, please don't promote unhappy life with random moments of happiness as the only truth;)

[Lucker]

The very point of my Post was to highlight that nobody has ever found a way to create happiness .
As for living it every single moment --- only with Walt Disney .
So far it has proved impossible for one person of the human race to achieve and judging by literature , happiness is not long lasting and when it does happen , it is sporadic and fleeting .
If you have any doubt , read the lives of Mystics . They all report the same , regardless of their different ways of solving the ultimate questions .

[sirène]

Dream as if you'll live forever, live as if you'll die today...

[pouffe]

Just tell me how many Euros it costs.

[Masichka]

So far it has proved impossible for one person of the human race to achieve and judging by literature , happiness is not long lasting and when it does happen , it is sporadic and fleeting
Nothing like that was ever proved. There is no universal definition of happiness, it's an issue to discuss and discuss and discuss;)

[Koshka]

this a great and rare talent is to be able to be happy :)

money, passion, etc, how many senseless things can make us unhappy

[Lucker]

Nothing like that was ever proved. There is no universal definition of happiness, it's an issue to discuss and discuss and discuss;)

It is one of the questions that great Art addresses constantly .
With respect , I think you sre talking more of goodness , kindness , satisfaction and contentment .
Happiness is most of these matters and then something much more .
That is why I mentioned the great Mystics and I might have also added Composers , Writers , Poets , Painters etc etc etc .

[Masichka]

It is one of the questions that great Art addresses constantly .
With respect , I think you sre talking more of goodness , kindness , satisfaction and contentment .
Happiness is most of these matters and then something much more .
That is why I mentioned the great Mystics and I might have also added Composers , Writers , Poets , Painters etc etc etc .

As far as I suppose myself to be a good enough artist, and I myself though about happiness and addressed to the very question during my entire conscious life, I dare to assert that a man can create his own happiness in every single moment of his or her life :))) And yeas, happiness is goodness, kindness, satisfaction, contentment and much more. But I still believe in what I said before ;)

[Lucker]

May be every person stops at the depth of investigation that their emotional , mental and physical systems can cope with .
I am also an artist and have thought and lived this subject for twice as long as you --- simply because I am twice your age .
I might share your hope and dream but I have never heard of anyone who is successful .And probably they would be incredibly boring to meet.

But now I must seek perfection with my Fish Pie and the trimmings .
Will it make me happy ?
Of course not . But I will feel good .

[Masichka]

May be every person stops at the depth of investigation that their emotional , mental and physical systems can cope with .
I am also an artist and have thought and lived this subject for twice as long as you --- simply because I am twice your age .
I might share your hope and dream but I have never heard of anyone who is successful .And probably they would be incredibly boring to meet.

But now I must seek perfection with my Fish Pie and the trimmings .
Will it make me happy ?
Of course not . But I will feel good .

Ramon, I really believe that we understand happiness in different ways (if even it sounds pretty similar when described by both of us) :) I do feel happy every day of my life. And if you believe that I could be a boring person it is you right to believe so ;)

[huney]

True, happiness cannot be created but one can create a willingness to receive it and an awareness of it's possibility.

We too often do nothing to prepare ourselves to recognize real happiness when it slips quietly into the room. We rush around grasping at bright, shiny baubles and happiness slips away having never even been noticed.

[Koshka]

If you have any doubt , read the lives of Mystics .
Who is Mystics?

[Lucker]

You have heard of Miss X . Miss Sticks is her sister .

Don't bother your head with Mystics . You will explode

[elane-ellie]

Who is Mystics?



http://www.religiousworlds.com/mystic/whoswho.html

:rolleyes:;)

[Koshka]

Thank you Ellie, but I would hear an answer of Constant Gardener

[elane-ellie]

Thank you Ellie, but I would hear an answer of Constant Gardener


I know you know that, as well as everyone knows ;) I just decided to offer my friendly help for the Gardener in a case if he forgot what he said.. age, you know.. it's not that easy to be a Methuselah :rolleyes: it needs some refreshing from time to time ;)

[Koshka]

self-consciously unself-conscious, boastfully modest

[paddedcell]

http://imgur.com/CccGK.jpg

[robwe]

In a lot of intellectual circles the amount of happiness is seen to be equal to the level of stupidity of a person. The dumber you are the happier you could be. In fact, he or she would just be too stupid to see how unhappy they really are. I can feel that tendency here a bit as well... This might probably even end up in the impression that if someone hits you define that to be happiness. But: To my knowledge and experience the ability to think is in no way proportional to the ability to live or the possibility to be unhappy. (So that is not a way out folks!) If you lack the ability to live you will get bitter, and hence become unhappy. The logical conclusion would be that you allow yourself to live in the first place. In order to do that you would have to master and overcome your fears before that. Because fears and only fears limit your ability to live. So in the end it is not about all the intellectual mumbo jumbo that you can hide behind to cover your ass not to do anything about it, it is just about doing it... If you´re done with all that go and get your soul mate, because then and only then you´ll find her or him.

Happiness is the absence of fears, and the presence of love. I can prove it, I have found that, I´m actually there... ;)

[Lucker]

[QUOTE=robwe;121693. The dumber you are the happier you could be. In fact, he or she would just be too stupid to see how unhappy they are


But does it matter ? Perhaps Jesus loved the simple minded as well as children and sinners !!
My guess is that Happy people are those who cannot see , or , choose to ignore , the full range of consequences and complexities . Namely , variations on the Simple Minded ROFL

Let's take a typical Happy example .
Someone with a marriage in a good phase , possibly one or two young children , a good job that is interesting and a really cohesive family and a few good friends .
Whoopee .
I ( We ) are happy ( they proudly announce )

Absolutely , also incredibly selfish persons .


Don't concern yourself with poverty , sickness , violence , torture , degradation and Mc Donalds .
Just be Happy .


Selfish and Ignorant , methinks .
And I will add one further thought .
If the planet was full of Happy people , we would be back in the Caves in "five " minutes .

[robwe]

I am happy in a moment then the lightning strikes.... and I´m back to unhappy.

Happiness is not a place to live in after you found it, its like staying fit.

You gotta work on it every day.

So if something hits you you have to deal with those consequences and overcome those fears.

It´s like a logical problem. If one is solved, the next comes up.

Knowing that behind the next door you unlock is another one does not mean to just not open any. (maybe thats what we expect from the simple minded that they would not know)

But knowing might lead to the conclusion that actually the process of opening the door gives you the happiness, so in the end of the day the worst that could happen is if there are new new doors :)

...

[Masichka]

Let's take a typical Happy example .
Someone with a marriage in a good phase , possibly one or two young children , a good job that is interesting and a really cohesive family and a few good friends .
Whoopee .
I ( We ) are happy ( they proudly announce )

Absolutely , also incredibly selfish persons .


Don't concern yourself with poverty , sickness , violence , torture , degradation and Mc Donalds .
Just be Happy .


Selfish and Ignorant , methinks .
And I will add one further thought .
If the planet was full of Happy people , we would be back in the Caves in "five " minutes .
After reading this, Ramon, I really felt sorry for you (I am not being sarcastic here) because your idea of happiness is so twisted that it will probably always prevent you from being really happy. I understand that it's probably some bad experiences that brought you to that point. But still. Happiness does nothing to do with selfishness... and being happy does not contradict being concerned with the world (if in you case it does... I am sorry again). Really happy people (in my understanding) not only concerned with the world and what is doing on there but also do thing to help the world and others...
Don't mistake happiness with selfishness...

[Koshka]

In a lot of intellectual circles the amount of happiness is seen to be equal to the level of stupidity of a person. The dumber you are the happier you could be. In fact, he or she would just be too stupid to see how unhappy they really are. I can feel that tendency here a bit as well... This might probably even end up in the impression that if someone hits you define that to be happiness. But: To my knowledge and experience the ability to think is in no way proportional to the ability to live or the possibility to be unhappy. (So that is not a way out folks!) If you lack the ability to live you will get bitter, and hence become unhappy. The logical conclusion would be that you allow yourself to live in the first place. In order to do that you would have to master and overcome your fears before that. Because fears and only fears limit your ability to live. So in the end it is not about all the intellectual mumbo jumbo that you can hide behind to cover your ass not to do anything about it, it is just about doing it... If you´re done with all that go and get your soul mate, because then and only then you´ll find her or him.

Happiness is the absence of fears, and the presence of love. I can prove it, I have found that, I´m actually there... ;)

For with much wisdom comes much sorrow;
the more knowledge, the more grief.

Ecclesiastes 1 -18

[Lucker]

Thanks for your concern Vicky but you seem to have fallen into the trap of sounding as though you are taking an azssumed higher moral stance .Remember , it is diversity of opinion and action that helps this species to adapt and change .Not standing still , or , God forbid , being smug .
My view of your position is exectly the same as yours apparently is of mine .
That is why I earlier suggested reading the Mystics before coming to hasty conclusions . This subject at a serious level is far deeper and more complex than most ever even realise --- see the Nights of Darkness thoughts which every Christian Mystic details in depth .
I always ask Nice people how they imagine God's character is made up .
They run into great difficulties when the negative world problem list appears --- as touched on previously .
Most then fall back on Gobbledygook --- God is unknowable and omniscient .
Yes , that really helps move the discussion on .

Rob has identified the unreliable and transient nature of Happiness .
He believes working at it somehow will produce successive Personal Bests . Very commendable , except it does not appear to work that way .
It is not unreasonable to think that Beria was at his Happiest when torturing and despatching victims . The same Happiness that a suburban House Wife might feel when reaching a suburban monent of euphoria .
If you deny that comparison , how are you going to show us that two people claiming ultimate happiness can separately fall into the Categories of
1 Boringly average
2 Monster . ?

[robwe]

"Rob has identified the unreliable and transient nature of Happiness . He believes working at it somehow will produce successive Personal Bests . Very commendable , except it does not appear to work that way . It is not unreasonable to think that Beria was at his Happiest when torturing and dispatching victims . The same Happiness that a suburban House Wife might feel when reaching a suburban moment of euphoria . If you deny that comparison , how are you going to show us that two people claiming ultimate happiness can separately fall into the Categories of 1 Boringly average 2 Monster . ?"

Happiness is an individual thing. So the perfect happiness for the "suburban housewife" would be boringly average for you. I understand as some others might say that writing 5000 posts on the internet might not fulfill them ,or solving technical problems is awful :) So if you ARE happy it can´t be boringly average, otherwise you would not be :)...and its only your personal happiness 2; I don´t deny that some deranged character might only be happy by torturing and killing other people, as much as some only feel true happiness when they suffer.... so in that case you might argue that your fear could be to discover happiness in other ways, find someone who likes to be tortured or ...worst case for you ... stay unhappy.... I don´t think happiness is consequently applicable to common moral or good and bad, but I do think that the common torturer does not torture because that makes him or her happy, but because they can watch someone more unhappy then themselves. Its a bit like playing with yourself. You might be relieved afterwards or even feel more guilty, but your usually not happy :)

[Lucker]

[QUOTE=robwe;121721
Its a bit like playing with yourself. You might be relieved afterwards or even feel more guilty, but your usually not happy :)[/QUOTE]



Not being a Wanker , I could not possibly comment .
British men do not Wank .
They rely on their stiff upper lip .

[Masichka]

Rob has identified the unreliable and transient nature of Happiness .
He believes working at it somehow will produce successive Personal Bests . Very commendable , except it does not appear to work that way .
Maybe for you it does not (and for some other people does not), but don't generalize please, because for example for me it does just well :)
I am for example live in the state of happiness (of course there are some ups and downs in my life, sometimes I am angry, sometimes I am sad, sometimes I am inspired sometimes I am not... but it does not make me unhappy. For me happiness is not at all reaching a nirvana state or highest level of excitement, or euphoria or something like that... happiness for me is love, care and development... When I feel I love and am loved, I care and I am cared and I am developing - I am happy... As far as I feel so most of the time it simply means I am happy all the time :)

[Koshka]

Let's take a typical Happy example .
Someone with a marriage in a good phase , possibly one or two young children , a good job that is interesting and a really cohesive family and a few good friends .
Whoopee .
I ( We ) are happy ( they proudly announce )



I disagree with your diffinition. No doubt, the person what you have painted really thinks that s/he is happy.

But let's see a little deeper. The Happy is when person has a balance between person's mind, a soul and a body.

A fear, a sorrow, etc..., a passion, in the end, the another words all strong feelings are signs of a disbalance between mind, a soul and a body . imo.

[Lucker]

[QUOTE=Koshka;121754]I disagree with your diffinition. No doubt, the person what you have painted really thinks that s/he is happy.


You have misunderstood Meat Loaf ,
My definition is much closer to yours .
The picture you quote is the one I suggested ( by implication ) is just contentment /satisfaction but passes for Happiness among those who do not wish to get more deeply involved in the spiritual quest for understanding , or ( very arrogant , I admit ) have no idea how the Universe is composed and why it is the way it is .

[elane-ellie]

They say if a man can describe Love, don’t doubt, he never used to experience it. I believe, it is the same for a woman. Probably, it is also the same regarding Happiness. But we are trying over and over again, however. ;)

Don’t shoot, please.. but I agree with two completely antagonistic positions of previous speakers – Ramon is totally right mentioning Mystics. Their experience is great about describing many various concepts including love, happiness, moral, etc.. And they are right telling about non-constant being happy, about “sparkles” in our mind or soul what we (whether it is right or wrong) call happiness.

But - sometimes it is not enough just to read Mystics.. :rolleyes: as well as sometimes, I would say, it is strictly forbidden to read Mystics for certain people as their inner structure is completely different to others and their Path either.
And as Mystics taught us – everything is dual ( means their beliefs are not The Highest Dogma either). That is why everything is triple – when we learn a concept and another one, opposite to it, and probably a lot of similar ones, parallel “plots”, and thus we create “something”, what becomes our own philosophy then.

That is to say, I do agree with Victoria’s opinion – one CAN live in a permanent, non-sporadic state of feeling happy. It depends.. Yes, it always depends on a subjective approach, on that particular way we’ve decided to call ours, that one which we created ourselves.

When I was significantly younger, I felt “happiness” (or what was a merely my own perception of it) from time to time, like very bright flashes or even splashes. Then somehow my life taught me to feel it always, however, the degree, the intensity and the picture might be rather different, but the sensation doesn’t go away. Even at the moments of tears and sorrows. It is Life, and it is happiness itself including all it brings to me (naturally, I can speak only about my life in particular).

Ray mentioned that way as being selfish and ignorant. Well, I don’t know who is to judge others. Who has this high privilege. But if I do for others and also for myself what I can do, means my best, while live and while I don’t stop feeling happy – am I selfish? Am I ignorant trying to escape reality? Pardon me, I don’t think so.


Is happiness a key for Life? It depends on what do you call happiness. For me happiness is equal to love, and thus I could call it the key to life, indeed. :)

I am speaking about all kinds of love – ancient Greeks had four distinct words for love: agape (general affection, emotional love between a man and a woman), eros (passionate love, with sensual desire and longing), philia (loyalty to friends and community), and storgē (natural affection, like that felt by parents for children, relationships within the family).
And while I experience them all – that is what brings harmony to my spirit, soul and body.

[robwe]

happiness in a relationship =

no fears towards my partner but trust
no doubts or second thoughts towards the relationship but having a soulmate
no irritations but affection
no negative feelings but love.

Actually I can see all the highly rational arguments about this. And they come up here as well over and over again.

It is like the discussion if a piece of music or poetry or a painting can make you cry or not. Some do have such an emotional reaction, some think those people are just stupid.

Let´s just for arguments sake say they are right! (those positive emotional, happy people are just flat out not seeing the "reality").

That would define their reality as a cold empty valley of tears with just a few oasis in between as a means of emotional refreshment.

In fact they would walk through this valley alone meeting up someone else also alone along the way to complain about life to him as long as he/she stays.

Even have a few hugs on the way to warm you up.

Mhmm, that sounds pretty sad to me. Seing "through" life like this is not higher intellectual or deeper, but its projecting fundamental fears to be hurt into everything, and reacting on them what makes them quite often a self fulfilling prophecy, and as a consequence a confirmation of that dreadful theory.

Imagine a person that lies in bed because he/she once got hurt by going out. If he/she would do that long enough he/she would become atrophic the muscels will shrink and then he/she can proof on him/herself that even standing up hurts, and walking hurts, and the body is in bad shape and only the bed is the right place to be where it is dreadful an dull but nevertheless it hurts there the least. If this person now is told to stand up and move it and live, he/she would probably have pretty similar arguments about everybody "up".
He/she would probably say those "up" people just to indifferent or insensitive to feel the pain he/she feels....

sounds familiar?

[Koshka]

happiness in a relationship =

no fears towards my partner but trust
no doubts or second thoughts towards the relationship but having a soulmate
no irritations but affection
no negative feelings but love.

Actually I can see all the highly rational arguments about this. And they come up here as well over and over again.

It is like the discussion if a piece of music or poetry or a painting can make you cry or not. Some do have such an emotional reaction, some think those people are just stupid.

Let´s just for arguments sake say they are right! (those positive emotional, happy people are just flat out not seeing the "reality").

That would define their reality as a cold empty valley of tears with just a few oasis in between as a means of emotional refreshment.

In fact they would walk through this valley alone meeting up someone else also alone along the way to complain about life to him as long as he/she stays.

Even have a few hugs on the way to warm you up.

Mhmm, that sounds pretty sad to me. Seing "through" life like this is not higher intellectual or deeper, but its projecting fundamental fears to be hurt into everything, and reacting on them what makes them quite often a self fulfilling prophecy, and as a consequence a confirmation of that dreadful theory.

Imagine a person that lies in bed because he/she once got hurt by going out. If he/she would do that long enough he/she would become atrophic the muscels will shrink and then he/she can proof on him/herself that even standing up hurts, and walking hurts, and the body is in bad shape and only the bed is the right place to be where it is dreadful an dull but nevertheless it hurts there the least. If this person now is told to stand up and move it and live, he/she would probably have pretty similar arguments about everybody "up".
He/she would probably say those "up" people just to indifferent or insensitive to feel the pain he/she feels....

sounds familiar?

Why are you trying to prove us that you are Happy?

Must that fact be proven in the forum? Why?

[flash gordon]

Why are you trying to prove us that you are Happy?

Must that fact be proven in the forum? Why?

why not in the forum..its already fll of ramons crap..so some diffirent sounds fine to me.

robwe go ahaed.




zorozoro

[Lucker]

[QUOTE=robwe;121841]

That would define their reality as a cold empty valley of tears with just a few oasis in between as a means of emotional refreshment.



Mister Robbie Williams ,
You cannot set up an opponents assumed position -- with the sole intention of flattening it -- without first checking that you have got the proposition right in the first place .
Give me credit please both for equal intelligence and sensitivity . At minimum !!
To understand "our" position you need to hold onto your hat and take several deep breaths .
We are probably believers in parallel Universes and -- who knows -- multi Universes .
But I will put that diversion aside and simply say that many individuals throughout History have concluded that there is a tangible Reality -- quite separate from our day to day living reality -- which occasionally reveals itself , albeit briefly .
However Happy you may become in your day to day living reality , this other world happiness is of an order that makes this world just a thought buried in a shadow .
Occasionally this other reality "shines" on us as though we have stumbled across a Chaos Theory Worm hole .But there is no way of preparing for a "visit" and no way of living your life to make you more "deserving"
Crudely , imagine a Parallel Universe Gift Officer , ( just use your imagination ) , wandering through space and time and occasionally shining his "torch" in a random way . One day it falls on you . But this in no way depends on who and what you are or where you might be .
Some imagine we are talking about a Heaven , and may be we are , but without the presence of Christian myth figures ( Jesus) or the gobbledy gook of a Heaven as an alternative to an invented Christian type Hell .
Unfortunately for Christian type believers , entry into our Heaven bares no relation whatsoever to the type and quality of life you lead here .But it does have implications on how we see this life and how we choose to live it .

Of course there are other excellent theories and one other suggests that it all depends essentially on the seritonin flow to the brain .But perhaps this is a symptom of a broader theory along the lines I have outlined .

If you can find Colin Wilson's , The Outsider , you will enjoy a breath taking ride in matters which are closely related to what I have tried to talk about .
Every person has his or her own path to follow and before the famous bright light at the end of the tunnel ( rofl) , there are many dark nights and tests .
But you won't even begin to get into matters in "suburbia" . All imho

[Koshka]

why not in the forum..its already fll of ramons crap..so some diffirent sounds fine to me.

robwe go ahaed.




zorozoro

Old Git found an own way to be happy or may be only be satisfated

[Lucker]

Old Git found an own way to be happy or may be only be satisfated

But not trivial or stupid .
It's nice occasionally to try and be adult rather than write endless nonsense reminscent of school boy and girl silliness .

[Masichka]

Why are you trying to prove us that you are Happy?

Must that fact be proven in the forum? Why?

Don't you think that you question is a bit out, especially taking into account the fact that you was the one who started the topic?
Must we write in forum at all? Why?;) Don't our own examples make one of the the best ways for others to understand?

There are two ways to live: you can live as if nothing is a miracle; you can live as if everything is a miracle. :)

[Masichka]

Crudely , imagine a Parallel Universe Gift Officer , ( just use your imagination ) , wandering through space and time and occasionally shining his "torch" in a random way . One day it falls on you . But this in no way depends on who and what you are or where you might be .

The thing here is that one just thinks that a Parallel Universe Gift Officer wondering through space and time and occasionally shining his "torch" in a random way . One thinks that this way is random because either it appears to him(her) to be random (he(she) just sees it to be random) or because he(she)just doesn't understand the pattern the very torch shines in, or... so on. But it does not mean that it is in fact really random (does not have any pattern and so on)...It simply can mean that one doesn't have enough facts and knowledge, can not it? :rolleyes:
If you agree with my presious statement (and if one is able to fallow a logical chain he or she should actually) it means that you statement "But this in no way depends on who and what you are or where you might be" is simply wrong because if one can understand the nature of the torch and analyze the patters of its movements this one will be able to avoid torch falling on him or her just fine ;)

Ramon, it is certainty easier to believe that there is some mysterious torch that can fall on us and we are all doomed because we can do nothing about it than that our destiny and our happiness is in our own hands, but who said that the easiest way is the right and best one ? :)

[flash gordon]

the thinking and the logical of the mind adds nothing on the happy feeling.
Better to explore the feeling of owns mind than to exploite the thinking. The feeling and thinking are naturaly opossed.
So better no rational discour on that topic.

zorozoroooo

[Masichka]

the thinking and the logical of the mind adds nothing on the happy feeling.
Better to explore the feeling of owns mind than to exploite the thinking. The feeling and thinking are naturaly opossed.
So better no rational discour on that topic.

zorozoroooo

Actually our feelings do fallow certain logic ;) Because there is always a reason why we feel one way or another :)))))

[flash gordon]

Actually our feelings do fallow certain logic ;) Because there is always a reason why we feel one way or another :)))))

yes .. but they are less controlled by the mind

zorozoro

[Masichka]

yes .. but they are less controlled by the mind

zorozoro

Why so? Explain. Because it depends.

[Lucker]

My PUGO has confused matters for you .
One of the intended key points I hoped for was to show that there need not be any dependence relationship between the" viewer" and the "viewed" . It does not matter what the viewing frequency is or whether either party wants to invest the experience with meaning or a mathematical property .The truth simply is that unrelated matters occur ( period ) and often are only even noteworthy just because they happen together .However , two things happening together does not in itself show dependence or any sort of relationship .
Such corresponences or Synchronicities as Jung called them , might occasionally allow a glimpse of one reality into another . A glimpse of an order of Happines that far exceeds our normal feelings of contentment and satisfaction .
If I go out to look over my Garden , I will occasionally notice Ants within my main aim of checking shrubs I have planted . But there is no relatioship between me and the Ants and my viewings will depend on nothing other than an Ant coming into view every so often -- by chance. I notice the Ant perhaps but have no specific agenda . And the Ant probably does not have any idea about me other than something else might also exist even though nothing is known about it ( me )
So our now famous PUGO might actually be viewing an entirely different agenda with occasional humans turning up simply haphazardly as a by product of the main search .
It is only Religion that has forced you to imagine a Godhead ( the mysterious Torch ?? ) that has a direct relationship with you , let alone a relationship of interest , let alone a dependency relationship .
I am suggesting that it is a totally unnecessary hypothesis and to an analyst it seems clearly wrong because all the evidence is against it .
That is , God does not Care and is oblivious to problems like poverty , deformity , disease , torture and degradation .
Where is all this getting us ?
What can I conclude ?
Answer :-
There is prima facie evidence that there is a reality outside of our day to day experiences
One of its qualities is a Happiness characteristic which is infinitely more intense than anything we experience in our "normal" Universe
There is no evidence that this other reality has any awareness of us
There is therefore no evidence that it cares for us .

So does it all matter ?
That is for the individual to decide and possibly represents one of the reasons we are alive -- to find answers to fundamental questions . But over aeons .

[flash gordon]

vero ,

our subconcience direct the emotional for the most and that has a logic .. but verry much diffirent than the minds logic wich tends to censure much events.


kind regards

lavuun

[Lucker]

[QUOTE=flash gordon;121886]. The feeling and thinking are naturaly opossed.




Dig up Descartes and tell him that .
You are a Card , Sorrow

[Masichka]

My PUGO has confused matters for you .
Don't worry you express yourself just fine even for not a native English speaker, nothing to be confused about ;)

One of the intended key points I hoped for was to show that there need not be any dependence relationship between the" viewer" and the "viewed" . It does not matter what the viewing frequency is or whether either party wants to invest the experience with meaning or a mathematical property .The truth simply is that unrelated matters occur ( period ) and often are only even noteworthy just because they happen together .However , two things happening together does not in itself show dependence or any sort of relationship .
Such corresponences or Synchronicities as Jung called them , might occasionally allow a glimpse of one reality into another . A glimpse of an order of Happines that far exceeds our normal feelings of contentment and satisfaction .
Here I assume that you have never heard of double-slit experiment (and influence of the viewer on the experiment) ... am I right? Or did you misspelled Young (writing Yung instead)? :rolleyes: (I just decided to add that it was a joke (my last sentence) just in case ;))))

[Koshka]

There are two ways to live: you can live as if nothing is a miracle; you can live as if everything is a miracle. :)

No doubt, the life is a miracle.

[Masichka]

vero ,

our subconcience direct the emotional for the most and that has a logic .. but verry much diffirent than the minds logic wich tends to censure much events.



For some people it's easier to control thoughts, for others - feelings (it's also possible to control our feelings with out thoughts and vice versa)... But you are right minds logic is different from the logic of our feelings...:)

[Yohoho]

In the past I have been attracted by the idea that EVERYTHING is in our MIND. If one is apt to practice self-reflection from time to time he/she would probably discover soon that it is our mind that gives evaluations to things and events... Depending of the evaluation given by our mind our neurous system and body starts to produce different reactions - pleasant and unpleasant... pleasant may be taken as a feeling of happiness... unpleasant as a feeling of unhappiness... So, knowing this... we can controle our mind... and instead of giving negative evaluations to the events, things and people we can try to MAKE an EFFORT not to give any evaluation at all (ignore) or turn it into positive experience, game...
And now imagine: if one trains his/her mind to be positive all the time... what reactions his/her body will produce and what feelings he/she will have...

[robwe]

It is only Religion that has forced you to imagine a Godhead ( the mysterious Torch ?? ) that has a direct relationship with you , let alone a relationship of interest , let alone a dependency relationship

Really. mhmm I think thats a personal choice. Religion does not force anything imho, I would compare it with a map for those who don´t think they find the right way on their own...

I notice the Ant perhaps but have no specific agenda . And the Ant probably does not have any idea about me other than something else might also exist even though nothing is known about it ( me )

True. But you do not interfere with each other, as long as you do not feel like the ant or the ant is aware of you. So there would be no "magic happiness torch" for either of you...

as Far as I understand your "divine magic torch" if not scientifically or logically explainable can mean one of two things.

1; Its like a random changing warm ray that hits you with no meaning controlled by an entity that is not aware of you or does not care.

If you believe that then playing lotto will be your thing... and life is dreadful for fact.

2; Its not random but given by a divine being as a result of you pleasing that being.
Mhmm that would be even more dreadful.

Lives not random to me,never was , can be very often mysterious but in the retrospective always with a certain logic. "Live is logical", that does not mean that you can understand everything. But I think one should try.

(Quantum theory is not deterministic, that does not make it illogical as long as you do not equal logic and determinism! Some say its bullshit and they wait for the real (divine ;) global world formula.)
Fine with me but I still would not call Heisenbergs stuff "suburban" physics. I haven´t seen much of the guys who wait for the divine formula actually. Or the torch other then how bad things are.
Quantumtheory and happiness is are parts of my life, like standing up when you fall, and enjoying art or a glass of wine. It is a conscious and rational thing to keep it up as it is an emotional thing to live with, and it requires work to achieve it constantly, (like cooking before you eat), or refining a physical theory.

The idea of it being "suburban" or shallow witth that compared to some not definable divine parallel universe imaginary torch is to me a bit of an excuse for not having to try anything about it.
And without citing Jung I´d say, this is a nice way to avoid coping with a very fundamental fear:
The fear to fail ...

[Masichka]

It is only Religion that has forced you to imagine a Godhead ( the mysterious Torch ?? ) that has a direct relationship with you , let alone a relationship of interest , let alone a dependency relationship .
I am suggesting that it is a totally unnecessary hypothesis and to an analyst it seems clearly wrong because all the evidence is against it .
That is , God does not Care and is oblivious to problems like poverty , deformity , disease , torture and degradation .
.
I don't understand your intents when you make examples about God all the time, especially when answering to my posts ( as far as I clearly stated long ago that I don't believe in God whatsoever I do believe in logic though... ) When I spoke about "Mysterious Torch" I had been sarcastic... because you put your Universe Gift Officer with torch (nothing is connected or dependent on him, he is not connected on dependent on anything) in the story, which means that you put " all mighty God" variable in the equation on the first place. Why should it be there at all? It always amazes me how people who try to prove they don't believe in God make examples substituting "God" variables with something else...:cool:

[Masichka]

In the past I have been attracted by the idea that EVERYTHING is in our MIND. If one is apt to practice self-reflection from time to time he/she would probably discover soon that it is our mind that gives evaluations to things and events... Depending of the evaluation given by our mind our neurous system and body starts to produce different reactions - pleasant and unpleasant... pleasant may be taken as a feeling of happiness... unpleasant as a feeling of unhappiness... So, knowing this... we can controle our mind... and instead of giving negative evaluations to the events, things and people we can try to MAKE an EFFORT not to give any evaluation at all (ignore) or turn it into positive experience, game...
And now imagine: if one trains his/her mind to be positive all the time... what reactions his/her body will produce and what feelings he/she will have...

I agree partially, however I disagree with giving no negative evaluation. Sometimes it is necessary to give. But definitely we can control how we feel, think and act in the situation that we gave negative evaluation to :) And of course one of the best ways is to turn it into positive experience...

[8bigwheels]

what have you done with the life:becky::peace::becky:

i read you and thank my god that i live easier life than all you do:)

here is wonderful song! listen to it please:)

1k4Tpvbokf0

[8bigwheels]

or this one even better:)

Listen as your day unfolds
Challenge what the future holds
Try and keep your head up to the sky
Lovers, they may cause you tears
Go ahead release your fears
Stand up and be counted
Don't be ashamed to cry
You gotta be
You gotta be bad, you gotta be bold
You gotta be wiser, you gotta be hard
You gotta be tough, you gotta be stronger
You gotta be cool, you gotta be calm
You gotta stay together
All I know, all I know, love will save the day
Herald what your mother said
Readin' the books your father read
Try to solve the puzzles in your own sweet time
Some may have more cash than you
Others take a different view
My oh my heh, hey
You gotta be bad, you gotta be bold
You gotta be wiser, you gotta be hard
You gotta be tough, you gotta be stronger
You gotta be cool, you gotta be calm
You gotta stay together
All I know, all I know, love will save the day
Don't ask no questions, it goes on without you
Leaving you behind if you can't stand the pace
The world keeps on spinning
You can't stop it, if you try to
This time it's danger staring you in the face
Oh oh oh Remember
Listen as your day unfolds
Challenge what the future holds
Try and keep your head up to the sky
Lovers, they may cause you tears
Go ahead release your fears
My oh my heh, hey, hey
Bo1Dasfz9eM

[flash gordon]

[QUOTE=flash gordon;121886]. The feeling and thinking are naturaly opossed.




Dig up Descartes and tell him that .
You are a Card , Sorrow

POPOL TELL ME WHATS YOUR PROBLEM;;TIME FOR YOU TO COOL DOWN

ZOROZOROOOOOOOO

[flash gordon]

For some people it's easier to control thoughts, for others - feelings (it's also possible to control our feelings with out thoughts and vice versa)... But you are right minds logic is different from the logic of our feelings...:)

freudian slips are the outbarst and failiour of controling the feelings and subconcience.


zorozoro

[Koshka]

You have misunderstood Meat Loaf ,

When you have a lack of arguments you demonstrate your bad maner and low style of working class. It is a cowardly behaviour.






My definition is much closer to yours .
The picture you quote is the one I suggested ( by implication ) is just contentment /satisfaction but passes for Happiness among those who do not wish to get more deeply involved in the spiritual quest for understanding , or ( very arrogant , I admit ) have no idea how the Universe is composed and why it is the way it is .



I guess you have started to reply me even have not read my post. Your difinition is contradictory mine.
I say about a balance between person's mind, a soul and a body as the way to be happy,not about the egoism and contentment /satisfaction as the way to be unhappy.

[Lucker]

W









I guess you have started to reply me even have not read my post.
.

As usual , you guess wrong .You and Sorrow are a great double act ,

[Koshka]

As usual , you guess wrong .You and Sorrow are a great double act ,

When you have a lack of arguments you demonstrate your bad maner and low style of working class. It is a cowardly behaviour.

[Koshka]

Everything that happens in our life plays an important role in shaping our future and present. Difficulties and problems too have a positive as well as negative aspect on our life. They also act as a calibrating tool, a rating system of our life. Big players face bigger problems and small players face small problem but each one of them sees and treats them in somewhat similar fashion. Every difficult situation or problem that we solve or cross successfully increases our individual ranking in life and adds to our list of achievements in life besides boosting our confidence level and morale to tackle such situation in future.

We create more problems and difficulties in our mind then what actually exists and then we tell our-self look its not me but the adverse circumstances, situations that are root cause of these difficulties and problems. Life spares none and we have to be prepared to keep progressing in our life in every aspect of life.

[Sniffer]

Ramon, I really believe that we understand happiness in different ways (if even it sounds pretty similar when described by both of us) :) I do feel happy every day of my life. And if you believe that I could be a boring person it is you right to believe so ;)



You are right VictoriaVero.
Do not forget that Ray is British. A British Gentleman.
And for a British Gentleman, Hapiness is a cigar called Hamlet!!... :p

[Koshka]

Anyway the decision to enjoy happiness in life is a part of positive approach to life also called positive thinking.

[Koshka]

A meaningful life is definitely a life which consists of happiness. Choice to be happy isn't always a result of some external factor, it is more or less an individual choice. If I want to be happy I can be happy as now I see things in a different light for example I think of present circumstances, situations as 'What we get is what we pay for' or an appropriate reaction to our actions or deeds (as every action is said to have an equal and opposite reaction).

[Koshka]

Happiness seems to be an art of living. It is available to those who seek it. Today we have all forms of comforts available at our disposal but we are not able to enjoy them, earlier before renaissance i.e. industrialization things were quiet simple to understand and follow, now a days things have become very complicated.

Today we have good beds but we are not always able to enjoy sleep (a part of our society is today suffering from sleeping disorder). Today we have enough food but we don't find it appetizing. We have 24 hours in a day but we can't find even half an our to relax, to enjoy freedom.

Why has this happened, why are we unable to enjoy the way nature and wild animal, insects, plants and flowers enjoy life.

Philosophy of happiness seems to be independent of external factors, happiness is not dependent on resources or comforts in life, its beyond these factors.