An Iraq Veteran has a personal message for Barack Obama

[IamKeenan]

Veteran tells it like it really is!!!:thumb:

TG4fe9GlWS8&feature=related

[1amongmany]

nice video, well made

the Iraqi invasion was a mistake, the American soldiers were sent over there for eronious reasons...it was not to give Iraqi's freedom, it was a revengeful move by Bush to elimenate Saddam and he used 9/11 to do it....everything Bush said about Iraq was a lie...I know, I was there

[IamKeenan]

nice video, well made

the Iraqi invasion was a mistake, the American soldiers were sent over there for eronious reasons...it was not to give Iraqi's freedom, it was a revengeful move by Bush to elimenate Saddam and he used 9/11 to do it....everything Bush said about Iraq was a lie...I know, I was there

Yeah Yeah Yeah!! You have spewed this garbage before. :yo:;)

The proof will be in the Pudding, Just sit back realax and watch the end result in Iraq. Then you can come to us and say you were sorry that you were wrong, We always forgive our detesters

[Lucker]

How long should we wait , General Tubby?
Will I still be alive to see this promised miracle ?? ROFL
At least Obama will sort the problem and retrieve a little honour and dignity for your country .

[1amongmany]

you can sit back and relax if you want to....I can't relax when I see a flag covered coffin being carried out of C130 knowing that their leadership screwed up and does nothing to fix it

[beezneesman]

Yeah Yeah Yeah!! You have spewed this garbage before. :yo:;)

The proof will be in the Pudding, Just sit back realax and watch the end result in Iraq. Then you can come to us and say you were sorry that you were wrong, We always forgive our detesters

Just out of interest what do you think that end result will be? It seems a little early for the victory parade.

[beezneesman]

Yeah Yeah Yeah!! You have spewed this garbage before. :yo:;)

The proof will be in the Pudding, Just sit back realax and watch the end result in Iraq. Then you can come to us and say you were sorry that you were wrong, We always forgive our detesters

Please enlighten me. Which aspect of the great sh1t sandwich you've created in Iraq are you most proud of?

[saprosky]

After meeting this three "fellows" the results for the rest of the world were a chaotic, crazy and stupid situation.

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20080319elpepinac_3/LCO340/Ies/foto_Azores_Blair_Bush_Aznar_decidir_invasion_Irak .jpg

Lies, lies, lies and only lies. Here we know very well. Thanks to his histeria to be "The Savior of the World" we got the worst terrorist attack in Europe (or nobody remember what happened in Madrid in March 11, 2004 ???? )

And after all, this *********** man still says last week this meeting was the best event in the last 200 years in spanish history. Unbelievable !!!!

I hope, for our own good that situation changes, and crazy people goes to mental hospital to treat his madness (and I am not only talking about only these three, I keep in mind now some woman from Alaska)

Maybe Obama will not better, but I am sure will not worst.

[Lucker]

Nice to read today's headline ,

OBAMA WITH LEAD IN POLLS

Here comes the winner
How far , my son ? How far ?

[kentuckydan]

Please enlighten me. Which aspect of the great sh1t sandwich you've created in Iraq are you most proud of?

On more than one occassion against credible threats of death and destruction
the Iraqi people went to the polls in overwhelming numbers

and voted

leaving branded with purpledye,
which was rather like parading with a sign that said

I voted

Kill and torture me and my Family.

There is no way something like that can be
created out of anything but the genuine
will of the People

There is another facet one can be proud of.


NyrStaIoh-w

[Lucker]

I see the Conservative -Fascist axis has gone quiet since the winner came galloping round the bend .
Wam Bam a Ohama .
In fact the two out and out Racists seem to have disappeared these last 48hours .
Has there been some KKK hang em high event this week end ?
Bob has just thrown in the towel and is probably bringing God into the battle . Why have you deserted me again God Boss ?
Answer ( from God ) . 'Cos I like this Black Dude . He is just like me .We are both Rappers .

[zoroooo]

Veteran tells it like it really is!!!:thumb:

TG4fe9GlWS8&feature=related


when I see such peace of propaganda I feel nosea..Jozeph Goebels couldnt have done better.

zorozoro

[snow_flake]

I have to ask - freedom for whom?:confused: For those who want cheaper gas? For the leaders of those big companies as Haliburton or oilcompanies from Texas :eek: -who makes a fortune at the war:mad:. The poor creature with one hand has definately not much option left - so not much freedom there:(

[IamKeenan]

when I see such peace of propaganda I feel nosea..Jozeph Goebels couldnt have done better.

zorozoro


Your full of shit too. You and Rasmon Should be attached at the Anus:lol:

And all Rasmon is MLK with a English Accent:lol:

[brown-raider]

I see the Conservative -Fascist axis has gone quiet since the winner came galloping round the bend .
Wam Bam a Ohama .
In fact the two out and out Racists seem to have disappeared these last 48hours .
Has there been some KKK hang em high event this week end ?
Bob has just thrown in the towel and is probably bringing God into the battle . Why have you deserted me again God Boss ?
Answer ( from God ) . 'Cos I like this Black Dude . He is just like me .We are both Rappers .you have nothing to gain by buckwheat/spanky winning the presidency other than hoping this will bring down America because of your jealousy of a super power, it's not America's fault your a rapper... rap your hands around your ankles, and take it in the hoo haa! a medaphore of what your country has done allowing the outsiders and the gays to brainwash you into submission... you nancy boy! did you lose the kids to the darkside and now have to pretend you like it... like this black dude,, ha ha ha ... so whats next Mr. rapper ramon ebonics for all of us?, to finish off the English language... Ramon quit being a hypocrite you are on the attack because you think that if you wish real hard and talk real nasty England will have a chance to win more medals than Russia and the u.s.... wow you really sound black panther with this black power stuff...ha ha ha! are you chukin and jivin with the bro's out in the set too.... LOL ha ha ha! later rappin ramon :kev:

================================================== ===================
Moderators request:Can you please tone down some of your posts.This one is actually mild compared with some of them lately.
================================================== ===================

[IamKeenan]

you have nothing to gain by buckwheat/spanky winning the presidency other than hoping this will bring down America because of your jealousy of a super power, it's not America's fault your a rapper... rap your hands around your ankles, and take it in the hoo haa! a medaphore of what your country has done allowing the outsiders and the gays to brainwash you into submission... you nancy boy! did you lose the kids to the darkside and now have to pretend you like it... like this black dude,, ha ha ha ... so whats next Mr. rapper ramon ebonics for all of us?, to finish off the English language... Ramon quit being a hypocrite you are on the attack because you think that if you wish real hard and talk real nasty England will have a chance to win more medals than Russia and the u.s.... wow you really sound black panther with this black power stuff...ha ha ha! are you chukin and jivin with the bro's out in the set too.... LOL ha ha ha! later rappin ramon :kev:



hahahaha Give him hell Cholo!!!!!!! :boxing:

[brown-raider]

nice video, well made

the Iraqi invasion was a mistake, the American soldiers were sent over there for eronious reasons...it was not to give Iraqi's freedom, it was a revengeful move by Bush to elimenate Saddam and he used 9/11 to do it....everything Bush said about Iraq was a lie...I know, I was therehuh! the words of all the terrible towels.. Alqeda, Taliban, G.I.A, Al-jihad, Hezbollah, hamas, ect.. what a coincidence. :eek:

[brown-raider]

when I see such peace of propaganda I feel nosea..Jozeph Goebels couldnt have done better.

zorozorojoseph Goebels probably stayed at the Comfort Inn of your city... layed with your women, ate what he wanted than took a piss and a crap their too!! and what did Begium do? fookin nothing... Belgium the little country that could't or wouldn't, because your country has always been castrated when it comes to a fight... the pebbles you throw mean nothing... does Belgium even have an army yet... oh yes they do they are still handling latrine duty for the fighting men, some body has to clean toilets why not Belgium, it's nice and safe there.. god forbid a bullet might come there way...:lol:

[brown-raider]

I see the Conservative -Fascist axis has gone quiet since the winner came galloping round the bend .
Wam Bam a Ohama .
In fact the two out and out Racists seem to have disappeared these last 48hours .
Has there been some KKK hang em high event this week end ?
Bob has just thrown in the towel and is probably bringing God into the battle . Why have you deserted me again God Boss ?
Answer ( from God ) . 'Cos I like this Black Dude . He is just like me .We are both Rappers .PEACOCK, SAY SUPERPOWER!! JEALOUSY WILL GET YOU NO WHERE!
Tell the truth Ramon, you would love to see the U.S. Brought down.. your jealous of our superior English, while you guy's are still talking like pansies... thats the real reason you want bamm bamm to win.... we are survivors, if need be we will weather the black cloud of Obama's presidency... aha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! even that is funny this freakin Bozo should only be asking "would you like fries with that sir" a ha ha ha hya ha ha ha ha!!:lol:

[beezneesman]

PEACOCK, SAY SUPERPOWER!! JEALOUSY WILL GET YOU NO WHERE!
Tell the truth Ramon, you would love to see the U.S. Brought down.. your jealous of our superior English, while you guy's are still talking like pansies... thats the real reason you want bamm bamm to win.... we are survivors, if need be we will weather the black cloud of Obama's presidency... aha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! even that is funny this freakin Bozo should only be asking "would you like fries with that sir" a ha ha ha hya ha ha ha ha!!:lol:

It looks like another one of the septics' chickenhawks has forgotten to take his meds and has fallen out of closet :rolleyes:

[1amongmany]

huh! the words of all the terrible towels.. Alqeda, Taliban, G.I.A, Al-jihad, Hezbollah, hamas, ect.. what a coincidence. :eek:

and the Steelers :rolleyes:

[kentuckydan]

It looks like another one of the septics' chickenhawks :rolleyes:

Yet again with Progressive Left talking point name callin :der:

While it is supposed to be an insult, everytime I hear the name
I am reminded

Of what runs around in cackling hysteria at the sight of a chickenhawk
in the sky :haveasmoke:

[beezneesman]

Yet again with Progressive Left talking point name callin :der:

While it is supposed to be an insult, everytime I hear the name
I am reminded

Of what runs around in cackling hysteria at the sight of a chickenhawk
in the sky :haveasmoke:


Perhaps your preferred nomenclature would be 'notebook bombardiers' as chickenhawks seems to be 'too close to the bone' for you guys :becky

I love it how you armchair neocons simplistically believe that everyone who criticizes you is 'left wing' it must be so comforting for you to see the world in such black and white terms.

Why is brownhatter so uptight about ramon? Has ramon rejected his advances or something?

[zoroooo]

Your full of shit too. You and Rasmon Should be attached at the Anus:lol:

And all Rasmon is MLK with a English Accent:lol:


you guys from the US feel free to post all the propaganda in you club the US patriots..I will never make a coment there..GG Gabber gave you that option.

But when you put it here in public I feel free to give you my opinion.And it doesnt need as answer the one you gave me....I feel sorry for you that your anal fictation hasnt still been curred.

Now In general I observe arogancy by a part of our members from the US towards citizens of other countries. I would tell that been an citizen from a big country as the US, Russia, doesnt make you better and more important than poeple from an european small or midsize country.Your way of ussing your country and flag is a discrase...you only use to compensate your lack of education in its full sense.

politly

Lavuun

[IamKeenan]

you guys from the US feel free to post all the propaganda in you club the US patriots..I will never make a coment there..GG Gabber gave you that option.

But when you put it here in public I feel free to give you my opinion.And it doesnt need as answer the one you gave me....I feel sorry for you that your anal fictation hasnt still been curred.

Now In general I observe arogancy by a part of our members from the US towards citizens of other countries. I would tell that been an citizen from a big country as the US, Russia, doesnt make you better and more important than poeple from an european small or midsize country.Your way of ussing your country and flag is a discrase...you only use to compensate your lack of education in its full sense.

politly

Lavuun

I am really sorry you are so jealous,if you want I can mail you the American flag to sleep with each night:lol:

[zoroooo]

joseph Goebels probably stayed at the Comfort Inn of your city... layed with your women, ate what he wanted than took a piss and a crap their too!! and what did Begium do? fookin nothing... Belgium the little country that could't or wouldn't, because your country has always been castrated when it comes to a fight... the pebbles you throw mean nothing... does Belgium even have an army yet... oh yes they do they are still handling latrine duty for the fighting men, some body has to clean toilets why not Belgium, it's nice and safe there.. god forbid a bullet might come there way...:lol:


and about this post Hmmmm no real comment I just refere what I said before...no education at all.

politly


lavuun


PS/ try to do an effort

[zoroooo]

more about propaganda and to what it can lead.


Godalming geek made millions running the Pentagon's propaganda war in Iraq
By Patrick Foster and Tim Reid in Washington
IT WAS astounding enough for Washington’s political elite: last month they discovered that the man at the heart of a scandal over the planting of US propaganda in Iraqi newspapers was a dapper but unknown 30-year-old Oxford graduate who had somehow managed to land a $100 million Pentagon contract.

What is even more remarkable however, after an investigation by The Times, is that just ten years ago Christian Bailey, whose US company is under investigation for planting fake news stories in Iraqi newspapers, was a nerdy, socially awkward English school-leaver called Jozefowicz.

The transformation of the geeky but ambitious Christian Jozefowicz, who just a few years ago was growing up in a modest terraced house in Godalming, Surrey, to the charming, baby-faced multimillionaire Christian Bailey now rubbing shoulders with some of the most powerful figures in Washington — and who next year will probably face questions on Capitol Hill about his company — is one of the more extraordinary stories to have emerged from the Iraq war.

This month it was revealed that Mr Bailey’s US company, the Lincoln Group, was the recipient of a Pentagon contract to help to fight the information war in Iraq. It then emerged that the company was paying Iraqi journalists to plant optimistic news “stories” in Iraqi papers that had been written by the US military.

Interference with the press touches a raw nerve in America. The fake stories revelation provoked a furore among Republicans and Democrats. President Bush said he was “very troubled” by it. Donald Rumsfeld, the US Defence Secretary, has promised a Pentagon investigation. Congress plans hearings into the scandal.
Related Links

* Oxford socialite linked to Iraq propaganda row

* The war on terror takes to the web

* Cindy won't hurt Bush but the big boys will

The journey from the Royal Grammar School, Guildford, which Mr Bailey left in 1994, to the heart of K Street in Washington, the centre of money and influence in the US capital, has been remarkably rapid. Today he has a reputation in Washington for being a socialite with links to influential Republicans. He is a helicopter and aircraft pilot and his home is in a fashionable area.

Through a Lincoln Group spokesman, Mr Bailey answered questions from The Times to help to explain how, at just 30, he landed the Pentagon as an important client. He was born Christian Martin Jozefowicz on November 28, 1975, in Kingston upon Thames, to Jerzy and Anne Jozefowicz.

His father, a Polish architect, died in April 1998. His mother, who has since reverted to her maiden name of Seifert, was born in West Germany. The family lived in East Molesey, southwest London, before moving to Godalming, Surrey.

Mr Bailey’s Royal Grammar School contemporaries recall a business-obsessed, “geeky” individual with few friends. “He was a nerd at school,” one told The Times. Another described him as a “school joke” who told everyone he was going to be a millionaire. He was the first at school to have a mobile phone and was interested in early versions of the personal computer.

He founded a Young Enterprise company, Chameleon, which led to his selection as one of the top six Young Enterprise participants in Britain.

His school yearbook records Christian Jozefowicz as “Mr Business himself” and that he was elected vice-president of the International Student Forum, a business gathering in the US. In 1994 he won a place at Lincoln College, Oxford, where he read economics and management. He kept computers in his room, thought for monitoring the stock markets.

In his third year at Oxford he hired an assistant to help him to run his first proper company, Linck Ltd, which sold self-help tapes. In 1998, he changed his name to Bailey. “Following his father’s death, Bailey assumed the name for family reasons, something which children commonly do,” a Lincoln Group spokesman said. In the late 1990s he moved to San Francisco to try his hand as a dotcom entrepreneur, and then to New York, where he became treasurer of the Oxonion Society, a club for intellectual Anglophiles. He became co-chairman of a networking group for young Republicans. With his Republican contacts growing, Mr Bailey moved to Washington, where he spotted a golden business opportunity: the looming war in Iraq. He formed a partnership with Paige Craig, a former US Marine who served in Iraq.

In early 2003, just before the invasion, Mr Bailey formed a Lincoln subsidiary, the Lincoln Alliance Corp, offering “tailored intelligence services [for] government clients faced with intelligence challenges”. He also formed another subsidiary, Iraqex, which won a $6 million Pentagon contract to launch “an aggressive advertising and PR campaign that will accurately inform the Iraqi people of the c oalition’s goals and gain their support”.

The big breakthrough came in June this year when the Pentagon awarded the Lincoln Group a contract worth up to $100 million over five years to support the US military’s “joint psychological operations”, known as “psyops”.

Lincoln group defended the planting of stories and the company has emphasised that none of them were factually incorrect. “By not speaking through the local media, the coalition would allow a vacuum for rumours and untruths perpetrated by the insurgents’ thuggery and threats,” a spokesman said

..I thank you for reading

[snow_flake]

and about this post Hmmmm no real comment I just refere what I said before...no education at all.

politly


lavuun


PS/ try to do an effort

Not only politically either Lavunn. We have in elections in Europe and rest of the world too -- with our disagrees - but u never see inhabitans here bombarding LL with propaganda like this. And worse thing is - this will only be even going worse as the election close. But of course - there is big tradition in US for this:becky: So my suggestion for Gabber is; Advice those creatures who will use their time to find a " suitable" link/chatting site or whatever back in US - when they can spread rumours, lies, bad make propaganda, tell that one candiate will be shot or whatever you want to fellows like yourself - and stop let them post post things like this at LL.

[snow_flake]

Not only politically either Lavunn. We have in elections in Europe and rest of the world too -- with our disagrees - but u never see inhabitans here bombarding LL with propaganda like this. And worse thing is - this will only be even going worse as the election close. But of course - there is big tradition in US for this:becky: So my suggestion for Gabber is; Advice those creatures who will use their time to find a " suitable" link/chatting site or whatever back in US - when they can spread rumours, lies, bad make propaganda, tell that one candiate will be shot or whatever you want to fellows like yourself - and stop let them post post things like this at LL. I forgot to mention - if you want to discuss politics in a normal way -be welcome also here

[IamKeenan]

I forgot to mention - if you want to discuss politics in a normal way -be welcome also here

Why? With your head up your ass you will never see the truth:lol::lol:

[snow_flake]

Why? With your head up your ass you will never see the truth:lol::lol: Keenan - u just gave me the best prove i am right in this case i ever got

[zoroooo]

Why? With your head up your ass you will never see the truth:lol::lol:


could you find another area to post your insults and nonses? I think we behave moderatly and you cant cool down??I dont know If you are drunk but open a blog to express your hate ...and I promise I will not post anything there.


lavuun

[kentuckydan]

Perhaps your preferred nomenclature would be 'notebook bombardiers' as chickenhawks seems to be 'too close to the bone' for you guys :becky

I love it how you armchair neocons simplistically believe that everyone who criticizes you is 'left wing' it must be so comforting for you to see the world in such black and white terms.

Why is brownhatter so uptight about ramon? Has ramon rejected his advances or something?

I didn't say you were Left Wing I said you used "Progressive Left Wing Talking Point Name Calling" you can dispute that if you wish but anyone who can read can decide for themselves the truth.

and since I usually refrain from gratiuous insults and name calling I am not afraid of the rest of the forum, comparing what I post to what you do,

[zoroooo]

I didn't say you were Left Wing I said you used "Progressive Left Wing Talking Point Name Calling" you can dispute that if you wish but anyone who can read can decide for themselves the truth.

and since I usually refrain from gratiuous insults and name calling I am not afraid of the rest of the forum, comparing what I post to what you do,


Dan ,

you are right to keep your free speach here ..you never use insults and so....And I am not the judge or what els to give you my green light..its just an impression I gave;.we disagree about manny things in the political field but still we can debate.

friendly to you.


lavuun

[beezneesman]

I didn't say you were Left Wing I said you used "Progressive Left Wing Talking Point Name Calling"

That's a fairly limp wristed bit of backpedalling from you there dan

[beezneesman]

Not only politically either Lavunn. We have in elections in Europe and rest of the world too -- with our disagrees - but u never see inhabitans here bombarding LL with propaganda like this. And worse thing is - this will only be even going worse as the election close. But of course - there is big tradition in US for this:becky: So my suggestion for Gabber is; Advice those creatures who will use their time to find a " suitable" link/chatting site or whatever back in US - when they can spread rumours, lies, bad make propaganda, tell that one candiate will be shot or whatever you want to fellows like yourself - and stop let them post post things like this at LL.

Maybe they should just post their propaganda in the 'US Patriots' group on here. Then they can have a big gay circle jerk about it without being subjected to any pi$$ taking from foreigners who find it objectionable and without boring the rest of us to death with their sanctimonious BS.

[kentuckydan]

That's a fairly limp wristed bit of backpedalling from you there dan

Actually it is an EXACT quote of what I wrote in the Post only in your world could that be considered "backpedaling"

Voila

you used "Progressive Left Wing Talking Point Name Calling"

Yet again with Progressive Left talking point name callin

both copyed and pasted from the two posts, the only significant
differnce I can detect is that in the first I mistakenly left off
the g in the last word

[kentuckydan]

Maybe they should just post their propaganda in the 'US Patriots' group on here. Then they can have a big gay circle jerk about it without being subjected to any pi$$ taking from foreigners who find it objectionable and without boring the rest of us to death with their sanctimonious BS.

The above is rather like the pot calling the kettle black,

I leave it to the forum to decide who deserves those labels

[kentuckydan]

Dan ,

you are right to keep your free speach here ..you never use insults and so....And I am not the judge or what els to give you my green light..its just an impression I gave;.we disagree about manny things in the political field but still we can debate.

friendly to you.


lavuun

We often disagree and we both defend our positions with passion, but we can be civil

That is not that common these days and much appreciate lavuun

[zoroooo]

So back to the video shown posted by keenan. And why I called it Propaganda.


Its propaganda by its set up...The aesthetics and the text are to hoodwink us.

American flag men in front of a " graveyard"? ...he doesnt know his text very so we believe he is true... what a set up..He plays for us as suckers.

lavuun

[beezneesman]

I didn't say you were Left Wing I said you used "Progressive Left Wing Talking Point Name Calling" you can dispute that if you wish but anyone who can read can decide for themselves the truth.

Which is of course just your snidey way of calling someone Left Wing because they disagree with you. Anyone with a functioning brain can see the subtext behind your post. :rolleyes:

[zoroooo]

On more than one occassion against credible threats of death and destruction
the Iraqi people went to the polls in overwhelming numbers

and voted

leaving branded with purpledye,
which was rather like parading with a sign that said

I voted

Kill and torture me and my Family.

There is no way something like that can be
created out of anything but the genuine
will of the People

There is another facet one can be proud of.



NyrStaIoh-w

Now to the video you posted..I dont denie that kurdes in Iraq are happy with what the Us did...but honestly that video is as well made for propaganda reassons.

Lavuun

[snow_flake]

McCain Support
But according to Bill Buzenberg, there are effective ways to bypass the formal ban on collecting money. Also in this election it appears 527 groups, named after the law paragraphs that give tax cuts to contributors. 527-groups are not covered by the restrictions from the federal election commission.

- John McCain are many, many millions of dollars for his election campaign through the Republican party. We write about such a group where the money goes through official party trap Newt Gingrich. They have collected 13.1 million U.S. dollars (75 million) on advertising, "said Buzenberg.

Oil drilling
According to Buzenberg and CPIs 2008 report to the money from the group "American Solutions for Winning the Future" is used for negative advertising against Obama. Under the slogan "Drill here. Drill now. Pay Less "to opponents attacked hard not to be expanded oil drilling on the shelf outside the United States and Alaska.

The oil industry is also becoming dominant among the largest supporters for John McCain. Behind Obama are lawyers and teachers the largest contributors.

- Republicans play a tough and ugly game of politics. Newth Gingrich group will be able to do the same for McCain, that "Swift Vets and Pow's for Truth" did for George Bush in 2004 when they hammer away at war veteran John Kerry, and turned key groups against Kerry, "says Bill Buzenberg.

[zoroooo]

McCain Support
But according to Bill Buzenberg, there are effective ways to bypass the formal ban on collecting money. Also in this election it appears 527 groups, named after the law paragraphs that give tax cuts to contributors. 527-groups are not covered by the restrictions from the federal election commission.

- John McCain are many, many millions of dollars for his election campaign through the Republican party. We write about such a group where the money goes through official party trap Newt Gingrich. They have collected 13.1 million U.S. dollars (75 million) on advertising, "said Buzenberg.

Oil drilling
According to Buzenberg and CPIs 2008 report to the money from the group "American Solutions for Winning the Future" is used for negative advertising against Obama. Under the slogan "Drill here. Drill now. Pay Less "to opponents attacked hard not to be expanded oil drilling on the shelf outside the United States and Alaska.

The oil industry is also becoming dominant among the largest supporters for John McCain. Behind Obama are lawyers and teachers the largest contributors.






- Republicans play a tough and ugly game of politics. Newth Gingrich group will be able to do the same for McCain, that "Swift Vets and Pow's for Truth" did for George Bush in 2004 when they hammer away at war veteran John Kerry, and turned key groups against Kerry, "says Bill Buzenberg.


I feel you go a bit naive ...about the teachers been largest contributors see

Top Industries of McCain BundlersSector
Securities & Investment $11,350,000
Real Estate $9,500,000
Lobbyists $6,250,000
Lawyers/Law Firms $4,900,000
Misc Finance $4,500,000


op Industries of Obama BundlersSector
Lawyers/Law Firms $11,700,000
Securities & Investment $8,900,000
TV/Movies/Music $3,150,000
Computers/Internet $2,150,000
Business Services $2,100,000


We European tend to see in Democrats our social democrats...verry diffirent.. We are in America and about monney both parties are taking it where it is..

We see Obama as left... but he is still more to the right side than any social democrat party in Europe..Dont forget America is a consevative country..nothing negative about that

but so it is.

zorozoro

[snow_flake]

Its an article from newspapers here, not my words. Here is whole article:


The U.S. election is legalized corruption
Financing of the U.S. election is the hinge so that the leader of the dig journalism Foundation Center For Public Integrity, Bill Buzenberg, characterizes it as "legalized corruption". Bill Buzenberg that leads the award-winning U.S. journalist grave Foundation Center for Public Integrity, characterizes the financing of U.S. election campaign as "legalized corruption". We have a democratic problem, "he said.

-We have a big problem with corruption in the United States. Our democracy is so steeped in the great cash flow in the options, at an election reform is essential. When Congress and presidentcy are for sale, it's just a question of how much they cost. In the end of the process, it is an option, but we see big money importance to the outcome, "said Bill Buzenberg told NTB.

Office for sale
He leads the independent organization Center for Public Integrity (CPI) as in twelve years has been leading in to monitor cash flow in the U.S. election campaign. The results presented in the ongoing reports on the Web Thebyingofthepresident.org

Race between Barack Obama and John McCain is the fourth presidential election where the center is on track for money to find how much it costs to buy the U.S. presidentembetet.

Now it is more expensive than ever. For the first time in history we see an election that will cost several billion dollars. Our surveys show that the winner of the last election campaign has been the candidate with the most money behind them. Bill Clinton collected more money than Bob Dole, while George W. Bush had more money behind them than Al Gore and John Kerry, "said Buzenberg.

Obama leader
Similarly Barack Obama had more money behind them than Hillary Clinton in primary election fight. Obama remains a financial management for John McCain. But this is now about to equalize after that John McCain has said yes to public financing.

McCain will thus federal grants for close to half a billion Norwegian kroner (84 million U.S. $). In return he is not required to collect more money in the run of his campaign. Obama has far greater extent has received small contributions from many supporters. He has no thanks to federal grants, and are still free to raise funds.

McCain Support
But according to Bill Buzenberg, there are effective ways to bypass the formal ban on collecting money. Also in this election it appears 527 groups, named after the law paragraphs that give tax cuts to contributors. 527-groups are not covered by the restrictions from the federal election commission.

- John McCain are many, many millions of dollars for his election campaign through the Republican party. We write about such a group where the money goes through official party trap Newt Gingrich. They have collected 13.1 million U.S. dollars (75 million) on advertising, "said Buzenberg.

Oil drilling
According to Buzenberg and CPIs 2008 report to the money from the group "American Solutions for Winning the Future" is used for negative advertising against Obama. Under the slogan "Drill here. Drill now. Pay Less "to opponents attacked hard not to be expanded oil drilling on the shelf outside the United States and Alaska.

The oil industry is also becoming dominant among the largest supporters for John McCain. Behind Obama are lawyers and teachers the largest contributors.

- Republicans play a tough and ugly game of politics. Newth Gingrich group will be able to do the same for McCain, that "Swift Vets and Pow's for Truth" did for George Bush in 2004 when they hammer away at war veteran John Kerry, and turned key groups against Kerry, "says Bill Buzenberg.

Not free money
CPI has over the years revealed that the politicians give a number of the benefits that vary from ministerial posts, access to the administration or other services. According to the CPI would Bill Clinton in 1994 to reserve two seats in the presidential plane to campaign donors. Seats were not always filled, but on 103 trips in 1995 and 1996 were 53 donors with the election campaign. George Bush set a new record when he appointed over 30 ambassadorial posts to their donors.

- This is legalized corruption. The money is not free. Whoever is chosen has obligations as a result of money that was collected in the campaign. There is no doubt about it, "said Buzenberg told NTB.

[IamKeenan]

You know the only way to show you that you are wrong is TIME and time will tell just you wait and see. And when your countries come begging for our help I will be sure and remind both of you about this nonsence you always post.. So........... Just remember;)

[snow_flake]

You know the only way to show you that you are wrong is TIME and time will tell just you wait and see. And when your countries come begging for our help I will be sure and remind both of you about this nonsence you always post.. So........... Just remember;)
:painkiller:

[kentuckydan]

Now to the video you posted..I dont denie that kurdes in Iraq are happy with what the Us did...but honestly that video is as well made for propaganda reassons.

Lavuun

That might be true, but what is more important is IT true?

[kentuckydan]

Which is of course just your snidey way of calling someone Left Wing because they disagree with you. Anyone with a functioning brain can see the subtext behind your post. :rolleyes:

I am quite aware of the position you claim in the British political system and I do not doubt your word, which you have given on several occassions

That said I deny what I wrote was

" your(my) snidey way of calling someone Left Wing because they disagree with you(me)"

It was instead my snidey way of pointing out you are not above using Left Wing Talking Point Slurs when you wish to dis America and Americans
But IMO

It is immaterial if you are on the British Left or Right, neither position in YOUR politics preclude running down my country and government,

I do believe that Anti-American sentiment can be found in both Tories and Liberals

[kentuckydan]

So back to the video shown posted by keenan. And why I called it Propaganda.


Its propaganda by its set up...The aesthetics and the text are to hoodwink us.

American flag men in front of a " graveyard"? ...he doesnt know his text very so we believe he is true... what a set up..He plays for us as suckers.

lavuun

It is presented as a statement of an individual American on issues he holds dear,

But I will stipulate that this being the internet, without some investigation it cannot be said with certainty, that it was not produced proffesionally instead of by a private individual

Now since you have opened the propaganda can of worms, may I present an exhaustive
presentation, on how many of the smears against Sarah Palin, can in fact be traced back to THE largest PR Corporation in the US?

Not all the work of a few nutcase Leftwing fringe elements but a deliberately orchestrated propaganda campaign by a company who specializes in what is called "Astroturfing" which is the fabrication of FAUX Grassroot movement,

Hope, Change, & Lies: Orchestrated "Grassroots" Smear Campaigns & the People that Run Them (http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/194057.php)

[kentuckydan]

It's a REALLY long read, sorry

[zoroooo]

That might be true, but what is more important is IT true?

reality:becky:

[kentuckydan]

reality:becky:

Yes a source can be neutral, it can be biased, it can even be prejuidiced
but the real thing is

Is the information given TRUE?

[zoroooo]

It is presented as a statement of an individual American on issues he holds dear,

But I will stipulate that this being the internet, without some investigation it cannot be said with certainty, that it was not produced proffesionally instead of by a private individual

Now since you have opened the propaganda can of worms, may I present an exhaustive
presentation, on how many of the smears against Sarah Palin, can in fact be traced back to THE largest PR Corporation in the US?

Not all the work of a few nutcase Leftwing fringe elements but a deliberately orchestrated propaganda campaign by a company who specializes in what is called "Astroturfing" which is the fabrication of FAUX Grassroot movement,

Hope, Change, & Lies: Orchestrated "Grassroots" Smear Campaigns & the People that Run Them (http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/194057.php)

oooooo about propaganda I will straight admit that in the election campain both parties are bussy to do so..I agree no doubt... but the partculary first video is extremily moraly ejectable;..ussing deaths of people which maybe arent agree with your political vieuws isnt verry ethical.

zorozoro

[kentuckydan]

oooooo about propaganda I will straight admit that in the election campain both parties are bussy to do so..I agree no doubt... but the partculary first video is extremily moraly ejectable;..ussing deaths of people which maybe arent agree with your political vieuws isnt verry ethical.

zorozoro

Again that is more of a complaint about "form" over substance, there are American Vets who oppose the war but the overwhelming sentiment on American milBlogs

Blogs by service men and women who have been in Theater, is in much the same vein as that video

[kentuckydan]

You want propaganda?

Obama has an explosive Spanish language video out
that is flat out Race Mongering and the

Hit points are Lies.

I heard it discussed on a CNN program of all places
and an African American Female spokesperson
on the show

Not only called it Racist Hatemongering

Totally false

But Stupid

Because she said when you put out that sort of filth
for it to be effective you need to do it so close
to the election the other side does not have time to
refute it and prove their claims.

This particular video was not by some far Left nutcase
but by the Obama campaign

That sort of stuff backfires, so while I was disgusted
after reflection my attitude was gratitude.

[snow_flake]

Because she said when you put out that sort of filth
for it to be effective you need to do it so close
to the election the other side does not have time to
refute it and prove their claims. Yes, this i have seen in several elections in several countries, also including Norway

[kentuckydan]

Yes, this i have seen in several elections in several countries, also including Norway

Here we call it an "October Surprise"

[zoroooo]

dan,

I speak as an humanits...I try to convince poeple that we the public arent well served by our politicians if .

1 if church and state hasnt clear separatetheir field of activities.

2 You dont talk over deaths heads thats not ethical.' thas video is obvious abusive. But its only a small detail in a wider way to manipulate populations.

3 Peoples freedom of judgement passes by freedom of press..

Thats not the only axiomas but they are related here and now about this discusion.
Propaganda brings us back to dark days.. so will in the future been qualified what hapens in your country now..

There is needed more courage and strenght to look behond our ideas and vissions and fashionable vieuws to todays...

I sadly I see that humanist thinking looses field because ordinary citizens are scared of "the other religion" and christian aliance with the juwish fedementalists are abusing them
by all means of...

lavuun


zorozoro

[snow_flake]

Here we call it an "October Surprise" So real shit starts about few days then? Here elections normally are at 10.september - same day at grouse hunts start. I remember 2001 - i was far away into mountains - camping at one for the norwegian tourist organisations cabins - hunting. 10 of september mountains was nearby red in sunset because first snow had falled there. It the valley down in autumm colors, hot as a summerday one hour, and some snow into air a couple of hours later. It was soooooooo pretty you could get tears into your eyes. At september 11 i heard at a very bad radio........50000 ppl killed killed bzzzzzzz Pentagon attacked bzzzzzzzz NY city in fire bzzzzz president is in safety in in his plane zzzzzz. I started believe new war was started, and under 20 minutes me and radio had running up 600 - 700 meter higher up in mountain for getting better signals to next broad cast. Then i heard twin towes was destroyed, fallen together. And in my mind i see them fell as lego toys to each side, breaking all. So that electionday and day after i will never forget. I also wish u and all american good luck in your elections, and whoever it will be - i hope the candidate will not split your country and be a good president:p

[Lucker]

That is a good wish and one that our incumbent President , Obama , is sure to treasure and seek strength from .
US elections are now world elections and somehow we should also have voting rights .
Put be down for the nice looking Black man with the fresh smile .

[snow_flake]

That is a good wish and one that our incumbent President , Obama , is sure to treasure and seek strength from .
US elections are now world elections and somehow we should also have voting rights .
Put be down for the nice looking Black man with the fresh smile .
Dont harass with them now Ramon, it started to be friendly again. Good thing with US are also all time zones, at some point of ( my ) day those who cannot stand rays from sunshine disapear and the normal are back
:D

[Lucker]

Dough Flake
Republicans should be harrassed at all times .
They are an unedifying breed and a dying one .
Anything that speeds up their death must be applauded .
How could you possibly shelter under the same umbrella as General Tubby and Dear Reindeer ? Bloody Fascists .

[snow_flake]

If i tell u i dont use umbrella and have norwegian rain coat - am i forgiven then? And who is reindeer ?

[kentuckydan]

dan,

I speak as an humanits...I try to convince poeple that we the public arent well served by our politicians if .

1 if church and state hasnt clear separatetheir field of activities.




zorozoro


That bit rather complicates Obama's record for you then, a major part of
His job as a "community organizer" was to

Politicise Churches.

[zoroooo]

That bit rather complicates Obama's record for you then, a major part of
His job as a "community organizer" was to

Politicise Churches.


yes I have to admit I am not a great fan of him....because of that..and more because I dont believe he is so..

strange for you but I have respect for mc caine;.he was durring the bush periode quiet critical...And with him you know what you get.. but obama I am not sure..return of the troop from Iraq...who believes that.

zorzoro

[Lonewolf74]

yes I have to admit I am not a great fan of him....because of that..and more because I dont believe he is so..

strange for you but I have respect for mc caine;.he was durring the bush periode quiet critical...And with him you know what you get.. but obama I am not sure..return of the troop from Iraq...who believes that.

zorzoro

I find fairly irrealistic the withdrawal of troops from Iraq. They got in under the excuse of the menace of WMD and terrorism support( sorry but Hussein and AL Qaeda is a good joke), the opposition by the rebels far extended what was expected and now what? Countries like Iran and others will continue to fuel instability in Iraq, the minute US troops go home..they take the upper hand and Israel starts shaking on its boots and its dangerous to shake, shiver and shudder when you have a red button.

Regarding the upcomming elections and if i was an american, I would have serious doubts in which candidate i would vote for. Although i feel some simpathy for both candidates I seriously doubt that the "machine" behind the US presidency will work properly and in the best interest of the american people.

As for a EU armed forces I think we all know that it would be difficult to get to that point considering the actual political balance(or the lack of it) inside the EU not to mention the strain on the EU economy to make that a valid plan of action.

All IMHO,

V

[zoroooo]

I find fairly irrealistic the withdrawal of troops from Iraq. They got in under the excuse of the menace of WMD and terrorism support( sorry but Hussein and AL Qaeda is a good joke), the opposition by the rebels far extended what was expected and now what? Countries like Iran and others will continue to fuel instability in Iraq, the minute US troops go home..they take the upper hand and Israel starts shaking on its boots and its dangerous to shake, shiver and shudder when you have a red button.

Regarding the upcomming elections and if i was an american, I would have serious doubts in which candidate i would vote for. Although i feel some simpathy for both candidates I seriously doubt that the "machine" behind the US presidency will work properly and in the best interest of the american people.

As for a EU armed forces I think we all know that it would be difficult to get to that point considering the actual political balance(or the lack of it) inside the EU not to mention the strain on the EU economy to make that a valid plan of action.

All IMHO,

V

I agree with you completly

[alpine-frolic]

I am really sorry you are so jealous,if you want I can mail you the American flag to sleep with each night:lol:

We have all one already, in our water closet....:p

[zoroooo]

We have all one already, in our water closet....:p


Lets not make more hated posts...because the flag is not keenans and I respect all flags except somefrom countries as ganster states..

read my tread about students.. that the right answer to such fools.

friendly to you


zorozoro

[alpine-frolic]

Lets not make more hated posts...because the flag is not keenans and I respect all flags except somefrom countries as ganster states..

read my tread about students.. that the right answer to such fools.

friendly to you


zorozoro

Don't matter moulefritte friend too much, it's only a bad joke and i think all parties are able to understand.
Flags are pieces of coloured tissue and have already often been used for diverse conveniences.
Some colours are nice and adding stars is a real pretty idea.
To be honest it could happen i sometimes feel some proudness when some blue white red colours are raised at top of an high straight arrogant perch, but there is always someone to touch my shoulder and tell me, look at your feet, here are your real so ancient roots.

[IamKeenan]

Don't matter moulefritte friend too much, it's only a bad joke and i think all parties are able to understand.
Flags are pieces of coloured tissue and have already often been used for diverse conveniences.
Some colours are nice and adding stars is a real pretty idea.
To be honest it could happen i sometimes feel some proudness when some blue white red colours are raised at top of an high straight arrogant perch, but there is always someone to touch my shoulder and tell me, look at your feet, here are your real so ancient roots.

If not for our flag your country would be speaking German now!!!;)

[Lucker]

General Tubby , Alpenis used to Post as Raztapo which was a clumsy way of trying to hide his Gestapo background .
You will recall I exposed him for this . It is no coicidence that his family busiess is the manufacture of Gas Ovens .

[Lucker]

My apologies for sending a General Tubby like Post

"It is no coincidence that his family business is the manufacture of Gas Ovens "
I expect you were happy with the first version ROFL

[zoroooo]

My apologies for sending a General Tubby like Post

"It is no coincidence that his family business is the manufacture of Gas Ovens "
I expect you were happy with the first version ROFL



I feel this is tastless humor...sorry ramon you went off track..

[Lucker]

Why ?
What's wrong with good quality Gas Ovens for the Turkeys and Chickens ?

[IamKeenan]

I feel this is tastless humor...sorry ramon you went off track..
No tasteless is acting like a friend and then stabbing your ''friend'' in the back by lying and acting like a snake..Remember??? Or should I tell everyone??:yo:

[beezneesman]

On more than one occassion against credible threats of death and destruction
the Iraqi people went to the polls in overwhelming numbers

and voted

leaving branded with purpledye,
which was rather like parading with a sign that said

I voted

Kill and torture me and my Family.

There is no way something like that can be
created out of anything but the genuine
will of the People



LOL I've just seen this. I have heard some bullsh1t justifications and rationalizations for the invasion of Iraq from the septics over the last 5 years but that has to take the gold medal for lack of appreciation of the realities.

It means nothing that people there were allowed to vote - the elections were so fragmented along political and religious sectarian lines that the government had to be stitched together (or more correctly power carved up) during very lengthy discussions behind closed doors. Hardly a transparent and accountable process. The end result is that the USA has had to do deals with the very groups that your government was previously condemning loudly as terrorists in order to achieve a temporary lull in the sectarian violence. The only real winners are the Iranians who will benefit from a weakened Iraqi state when the US forces eventually withdraw.

[zoroooo]

No tasteless is acting like a friend and then stabbing your ''friend'' in the back by lying and acting like a snake..Remember??? Or should I tell everyone??:yo:

just start to fool and I pay you back with some nice info..just Its clear you try to fight your private war against me on this forum..


And I can speak so to ramon as he can do so If he feels it ...


zorozoro

[zoroooo]

Why ?
What's wrong with good quality Gas Ovens for the Turkeys and Chickens ?


I feel it difficult to apriciate jokes about the holcaust. We arent kids and we are elderly men who should give exemplairy atitudes about it..I dont say its a crime.... but when we go borderline how to contain idiots?

friendly


lavuun


.

[Lucker]

Sorrow ,
I deliberately did not use the one trigger word which would have put it on dangerous ground .You did !!
It is dangerous to censor things just because they disturb . But it is a tricky area , for different people have different breaking points .
Isn't the art to get it at least 80% right , say , so that boundaries are forever stretched ?
There will always be a few who find fault .

[zoroooo]

Sorrow ,
I deliberately did not use the one trigger word which would have put it on dangerous ground .You did !!
It is dangerous to censor things just because they disturb . But it is a tricky area , for different people have different breaking points .
Isn't the art to get it at least 80% right , say , so that boundaries are forever stretched ?
There will always be a few who find fault .


ramon ok, enlight what I did.

I dont censor you..I have no more value on this forum than you. I gave my feeling and thats it...from here feel free to post similar jokes ...I am not intended to play police...

politly and still friendly to you


lavuun

[kentuckydan]

LOL I've just seen this. I have heard some bullsh1t justifications and rationalizations for the invasion of Iraq from the septics over the last 5 years but that has to take the gold medal for lack of appreciation of the realities.

It means nothing that people there were allowed to vote - .

It is obvious it means nothing to YOU, it is equally obvious that it meantr something
to THEM Al Qaedar was quite explicit on what they wanted to do to anyone who voted.

Risking a quite credible death threat to do something indicates that it had a large enough meaning to the People of Iraqi no matter how much you spit on their actions with your spleen

and you call other people septic?

[brown-raider]

That is a good wish and one that our incumbent President , Obama , is sure to treasure and seek strength from .
US elections are now world elections and somehow we should also have voting rights .
Put be down for the nice looking Black man with the fresh smile .Peacock must you always find away to interject your gay fantasies here....

[brown-raider]

ramon ok, enlight what I did.

I dont censor you..I have no more value on this forum than you. I gave my feeling and thats it...from here feel free to post similar jokes ...I am not intended to play police...

politly and still friendly to you


lavuunLuvuun, how is it you always want to play Obi Won Kanobi of the posts here your just as guilty as anybody else of going off track, criticising others posts ect.. don't dish out what you don't like too take....

[brown-raider]

peacock, snow from Noware, Belzebub, and Zoro, luvuun, whitemancan'tjump or whoever your parading around as.... after all your biotching and moaning about Buckwheat winning the election over Macain, in the end it doesn't matter what you think, because you don't have a vote, I would say be more concerned with your own countries elections but I can see why your not... your countries like Noware, and Beljam don't matter to anybody.... so you can go back to making clogs and waffels or what ever cranks your wheel... and England well thats different at least they don't roll over and play dead if there's a fight to be fought...... limp wrist ramon being the exception of course:yo:

[kentuckydan]

Note to whom it may concern.

Snide comments about the sexuality of someone who disagrees with you is not
a valid argument on any subject concering Politics or Economics.



In fact such activity does nothing but indicate that you consider your
intellectual position to be weak and if you really wish to make your point

It is counterproductive.

This note applies to more than one person here.

Personally I don't really care what people call me, but I do believe
some of the other members of this forum are getting tired of this
type of activity.

[brown-raider]

Note to whom it may concern.

Snide comments about the sexuality of someone who disagrees with you is not
a valid argument on any subject concering Politics or Economics.



In fact such activity does nothing but indicate that you consider your
intellectual position to be weak and if you really wish to make your point

It is counterproductive.

This note applies to more than one person here.

Personally I don't really care what people call me, but I do believe
some of the other members of this forum are getting tired of this
type of activity.snide comments begat snide comments, so does respect, if sexuality preferences would never be brought up, it would never become an issue... Dan your a scholar and a Gentleman but I'm not concerned about the high road, an eye for an eye toothe for a toothe is how I was taught.. not everyone is nice in this world, scoundrels should be labeled as such... of course many of us are just playing around most of the time..

[zoroooo]

I see he night has been verry productive of deep phylosofic analizes and arogant bulling


zorozoro

[Lucker]

Of course you are absolutely right Smutty , old chap .
However the plight of a closet Gay , for example , is a hard one .
Through circumstances they can find themselves locked into a public persona of brashness , insensitivity and vulgarity , all as a means of covering their inner confusion . Sometimes they find they have trapped themselves in a most inappropriate marriage .
I sincerely hope that this is not the situation that our most extreme verbal Gay basher finds himself in . For , if so , it is help and understanding that he craves and I want to wish him good fortune in his inner hunt for his true sexual identity .

[zoroooo]

Of course you are absolutely right Smutty , old chap .
However the plight of a closet Gay , for example , is a hard one .
Through circumstances they can find themselves locked into a public persona of brashness , insensitivity and vulgarity , all as a means of covering their inner confusion . Sometimes they find they have trapped themselves in a most inappropriate marriage .
I sincerely hope that this is not the situation that our most extreme verbal Gay basher finds himself in . For , if so , it is help and understanding that he craves and I want to wish him good fortune in his inner hunt for his true sexual identity .


lol I am not sure the one whom concerned by this can even understand:becky:

thanks for this post


lavuun

[beezneesman]

It is obvious it means nothing to YOU, it is equally obvious that it meantr something
to THEM Al Qaedar was quite explicit on what they wanted to do to anyone who voted.

Risking a quite credible death threat to do something indicates that it had a large enough meaning to the People of Iraqi no matter how much you spit on their actions with your spleen

and you call other people septic?


Well OK it probably did mean something to them until after the election when they realized they'd been stitched up :rolleyes:

Good for the credibility of democracy and the American way don'tcha think?

[beezneesman]

Of course you are absolutely right Smutty , old chap .
However the plight of a closet Gay , for example , is a hard one .
Through circumstances they can find themselves locked into a public persona of brashness , insensitivity and vulgarity , all as a means of covering their inner confusion . Sometimes they find they have trapped themselves in a most inappropriate marriage .
I sincerely hope that this is not the situation that our most extreme verbal Gay basher finds himself in . For , if so , it is help and understanding that he craves and I want to wish him good fortune in his inner hunt for his true sexual identity .

Yeah brown hatter is trying so hard to sound macho when he hits his keyboard he's in great danger of falling out of his closet.

[brown-raider]

I see he night has been verry productive of deep phylosofic analizes and arogant bulling


zorozoroluvuun I'm sure what ever the fook you are trying to say must have taken some deep thinking on your part, but guess what, you still got it wrong wtf are you trying to say... try buying a Websters dictionary thats WEBSTER'S.. no charge for the advice:yo:

[brown-raider]

Yeah brown hatter is trying so hard to sound macho when he hits his keyboard he's in great danger of falling out of his closet.with all this big talk belzebub lets see what kind of a lady you can catch... at least your trying:yo:

[zoroooo]

with all this big talk belzebub lets see what kind of a lady you can catch... at least your trying:yo:

I think you go far to tease a man so...What could you feel if we start to fool with you about your wife...try to respect at least one part of our members..


zorozoro

[zoroooo]

the private part

[beezneesman]

with all this big talk belzebub lets see what kind of a lady you can catch... at least your trying:yo:

Mission already accomplished sir.
My work here is done - I'm just online for a laugh now. :)

================================================== =============================
Moderators request - Guys let's try to keep the posts friendly. No personal attacks. This goes for everyone. Thank you.

[kentuckydan]

Well OK it probably did mean something to them until after the election when they realized they'd been stitched up :rolleyes:

Good for the credibility of democracy and the American way don'tcha think?

Happened more than once so far. It took Anglo-Saxon Culture a thousand years from the peasants being unbound from the land through the Magna Carta, creation and Evolution of Parliament, splitting off in the different directions taken by the former Colonys to reach where we are today.

Iraq has made tremendous progress but birth is often a messy untidy process, they do not have anything identical to what we have but it is a process, not a goal post.

Actually we have rushed the process and return to Sovereignty in Iraq a whole lot faster than we did in Germany.

Does this sound familiar?

The US has won the War but is losing the Peace, it had no plan for the Occupation, American Prestige has never been lower in Europe.

That was in a New York Times Article during the German Occupation,

A time that in one article, in the British Sector your government was contemplating using armored troops to put down food riots, no one remembers.

[alpine-frolic]

If not for our flag your country would be speaking German now!!!;)

I am not for or against US flag, as i am not for or against french flag. In France those who like to have french flag in home or car...are mostly acquainted with JM LePen (who is a friend of my family, perhaps even a cousin, Ramon, and i had so perhaps an uncle named Pétain)

[beezneesman]

Happened more than once so far. It took Anglo-Saxon Culture a thousand years from the peasants being unbound from the land through the Magna Carta, creation and Evolution of Parliament, splitting off in the different directions taken by the former Colonys to reach where we are today.

Iraq has made tremendous progress but birth is often a messy untidy process, they do not have anything identical to what we have but it is a process, not a goal post.

Actually we have rushed the process and return to Sovereignty in Iraq a whole lot faster than we did in Germany.

Does this sound familiar?

The US has won the War but is losing the Peace, it had no plan for the Occupation, American Prestige has never been lower in Europe.

That was in a New York Times Article during the German Occupation,

A time that in one article, in the British Sector your government was contemplating using armored troops to put down food riots, no one remembers.

I might almost begin to agree with some of that but I'm going to take issue with your euphemistic description of the 'messy untidy process'.

I know one of the founders of Iraq Body Count and I have a lot of respect for their views on what has been going on there. They tend to make conservative estimates of the numbers of deaths out there and their current estimates are in the range of 87000-95000. Even 87000 is quite a lot of claret spilt as a result of the US and UK's actions don't you think - especially as it has to go down as probably the most avoidable and least necessary war in history.

This lady's debunking of some of Nuri Al Maliki's recent BS sums up the situation quite well:

'Iraq today is a country of terror, poverty, disease and helplessness. A country that is paying dearly for the security of those fat wallets of our leaders. And their associates.'
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/week-in-iraq/

And remember 87000-95000 is only the beginning. Many more will die before a new dictatorship finally emerges victorious.

[IamKeenan]

http://greatblogabout.org/?p=50

American soldiers after war in Iraq No Words:(

[kentuckydan]

I might almost begin to agree with some of that but I'm going to take issue with your euphemistic description of the 'messy untidy process'.

I know one of the founders of Iraq Body Count and I have a lot of respect for their views on what has been going on there. They tend to make conservative estimates of the numbers of deaths out there and their current estimates are in the range of 87000-95000. Even 87000 is quite a lot of claret spilt as a result of the US and UK's actions don't you think - especially as it has to go down as probably the most avoidable and least necessary war in history.

This lady's debunking of some of Nuri Al Maliki's recent BS sums up the situation quite well:

'Iraq today is a country of terror, poverty, disease and helplessness. A country that is paying dearly for the security of those fat wallets of our leaders. And their associates.'
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/analysis/beyond/week-in-iraq/

And remember 87000-95000 is only the beginning. Many more will die before a new dictatorship finally emerges victorious.

Yes the deaths of that many humand beings is deeply troubling and the the Iraqi Body Count interesting website, but no data whatsoever about "Needless" Civilian deaths BEFORE the US went into Iraq there.

Was Iraq only a country of "terror, poverty, disease and helplessness. A country that is paying dearly for the security of those fat wallets of our leaders. And their associates."

after the US came in or could the same thing be said about the State of the Nation under Saddam.

Here is a link to a Stanford University webpage called IRAQ: Deaths under Saddam Hussein
(http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_deathsundersaddamhussein42503.html)


You do the math, or find your own sources and tell us, have "needless" civlian deaths gone up or down? BTW what is the current situation?

PS before the US went in the Iraqi people were paying dearly by some accounts to the tune of some 10 Billion US dollars out of the Food for Oil Funds into the deep pockets of EU and UN functionaries.

[beezneesman]

Yes the deaths of that many humand beings is deeply troubling and the the Iraqi Body Count interesting website, but no data whatsoever about "Needless" Civilian deaths BEFORE the US went into Iraq there.

Was Iraq only a country of "terror, poverty, disease and helplessness. A country that is paying dearly for the security of those fat wallets of our leaders. And their associates."

after the US came in or could the same thing be said about the State of the Nation under Saddam.

Here is a link to a Stanford University webpage called IRAQ: Deaths under Saddam Hussein
(http://wais.stanford.edu/Iraq/iraq_deathsundersaddamhussein42503.html)


You do the math, or find your own sources and tell us, have "needless" civlian deaths gone up or down? BTW what is the current situation?

PS before the US went in the Iraqi people were paying dearly by some accounts to the tune of some 10 Billion US dollars out of the Food for Oil Funds into the deep pockets of EU and UN functionaries.

Needless civilian deaths in Iraq before the invasion (or needless civilian deaths in Iraq if the invasion had never happened) were/are none of our business!

Like I said this was/is the most avoidable/unnecessary war in history and you are missing the point.

Call me a crusty old Tory reactionary if you like but war should only ever be the last resort for purposes of national security. War that is ostensibly for 'fuzzy touchy feely humanitarian democratic reasons' is bullsh1t and, judging by the unprecedented size of the demos (1 million+) in London prior to the invasion of Iraq, the majority of people here in the UK share that view.

The world will only ever judge you septics as being hypocrites, and will treat you accordingly, if you follow the types of policies that have resulted in the invasion of Iraq. After all if you invaded Iraq to somehow reduce the body count, or try to bomb your way to Jeffersonian democracy, then there are probably dozens of other countries in the world with odious regimes that deserve similar treatment but are not getting it. So why are they not?

The hippies did get one thing right though 'Fighting for peace (or democracy) is like fcuking for virginity'

[beezneesman]

http://greatblogabout.org/?p=50

American soldiers after war in Iraq No Words:(


Yeah and we all know who has the ultimate responsibility for them no longer having the regulation number of limbs. The buck stops at the top doesn't it?

[kentuckydan]

Needless civilian deaths in Iraq before the invasion (or needless civilian deaths in Iraq if the invasion had never happened) were/are none of our business!



Yes I have noticed that the World Forgot the Words it spoke after
WWII

Never Again?

What a Sad Sick Joke, I cannot recall anytime in the last 60 years when
the World has reacted to genocide with anything but states of shock
and commitees after the fact.

So if you were given the power then you would put everything back and needless Civilain Deaths at a level far greater than the ones you just now complained of would be acceptable.

Then what is your concern about the the deaths since 2003?

[kentuckydan]

"Call me a crusty old Tory reactionary if you like but war should only ever be the last resort for purposes of national security. War that is ostensibly for 'fuzzy touchy feely humanitarian democratic reasons' is bullsh1t and, judging by the unprecedented size of the demos (1 million+) in London prior to the invasion of Iraq, the majority of people here in the UK share that view."

By that criteria the US had no business getting involved in WWI and would therefore have had no business getting involved in WWII

We should have let Europe handle their own problems. I wonder how wide spread German language use would have ended up in Europe?

[kentuckydan]

"then there are probably dozens of other countries in the world with odious regimes that deserve similar treatment but are not getting it. So why are they not?"

One small step at a time good buddy, we can;t be everywhere.

By the way how is the EU doing on it's Dafur Peacekeeping Mission?

Y'al figure out where to round up 2 dozen helicopters yet???

[beezneesman]

Yes I have noticed that the World Forgot the Words it spoke after
WWII

Never Again?

What a Sad Sick Joke, I cannot recall anytime in the last 60 years when
the World has reacted to genocide with anything but states of shock
and commitees after the fact.

So if you were given the power then you would put everything back and needless Civilain Deaths at a level far greater than the ones you just now complained of would be acceptable.

Then what is your concern about the the deaths since 2003?

My concern is that my country is partly responsible for them because our ridiculously naive posturing Prime Minister at the time was stupid enough to be influenced by the voices in George Bush's head.

So Dan let's turn this around? Are you personally going to invade all the unpleasant regimes around the world that are violating human rights etc on a massive scale? Probably not - you'll just be sabre rattling from your armchair.

What level of claret spilling will get your attention? How much claret spilling by the guys who are your allies (because they are 'your' bastards) will you turn a blind eye to for reasons of expediency?

[beezneesman]

"then there are probably dozens of other countries in the world with odious regimes that deserve similar treatment but are not getting it. So why are they not?"

One small step at a time good buddy, we can;t be everywhere.

By the way how is the EU doing on it's Dafur Peacekeeping Mission?

Y'al figure out where to round up 2 dozen helicopters yet???

You can't be everywhere - that is exactly my point and that is why you are exposing yourselves as hypocrites. What makes one place deserving of bombed until its open to American business but not another?

Why should I care about Darfur? The world is full of countries where the Mbingo tribe is massacring the Mbongo tribe as they have done for centuries.

[beezneesman]

"Call me a crusty old Tory reactionary if you like but war should only ever be the last resort for purposes of national security. War that is ostensibly for 'fuzzy touchy feely humanitarian democratic reasons' is bullsh1t and, judging by the unprecedented size of the demos (1 million+) in London prior to the invasion of Iraq, the majority of people here in the UK share that view."

By that criteria the US had no business getting involved in WWI and would therefore have had no business getting involved in WWII

We should have let Europe handle their own problems. I wonder how wide spread German language use would have ended up in Europe?

That may be true but you got involved in WW2 because Japan attacked you and Germany declared war on you so it wasn't really a case of intervening for bogus humanitarian reasons was it. In WW1 the USA did not really have time to play a decisive role anyway.

[zoroooo]

That may be true but you got involved in WW2 because Japan attacked you and Germany declared war on you so it wasn't really a case of intervening for bogus humanitarian reasons was it. In WW1 the USA did not really have time to play a decisive role anyway.



Beez we could back to La fayette and telling them that the queen could have been there head of state ..who knows..

I call this all not a valuable for todays discussion..Maybe they would like to say just "shut up" and admire our speaches.

Dan ,
sorry you cant use history to explain and justify all.I am gratefull to the world including you, french,english scotish braves etc to have freed us...But as a person I would like repect for our sometimes diffirent vieuws in politics. You arent the Navy and me neither a mouse.


friendly to you

[brown-raider]

I think you go far to tease a man so...What could you feel if we start to fool with you about your wife...try to respect at least one part of our members..


zorozorothat's fine with me as long as we wait till you get one, so I can tease you back..:yo: Keeping it friendly luvuun!

[kentuckydan]

You can't be everywhere - that is exactly my point and that is why you are exposing yourselves as hypocrites. What makes one place deserving of bombed until its open to American business but not another?

Why should I care about Darfur? The world is full of countries where the Mbingo tribe is massacring the Mbongo tribe as they have done for centuries.

Why should you care about Dafur? No reason at all. But the EU did make a commitment
and has spent how long now dithering talking and doing nothing at all?

You anology of not being able to be everywhere meaning being anywhere makes one a hypocrite sounds a lot like the starfish story.

A great storm had strown starfish along the entire length of a beach a man walking down it saw a little girl picking up starfish and throwing them back into the sea.

Child he said there are thousands of starfish thrown up onto this beach, what you are doing will not make any difference.

It will to this one she said picking up a starfish and throwing it back into the sea.

It would be nice if brutal Facistic Dictators could all be eliminated but the reality is the US cannot do it by itself and there seems to be a singular lack of willingness of some other countries to become involved. They are too busy making money

Oh yes they are willing to make self important statements

Never Again. We will put a Peacekeepers in Dafur to stop the genocide,.

But it's all Hot Air.

Just talking the talk and not walking the walk

It is morally wrong to promise things one has no intention of even trying to do

Americans keep being reminded of what the world is supposed to think of us.

I wander what people think about the EU and the UN?

Do you think anyone really believes that they CAN'T find two measly dozen helicopters???

I mean it is a sad sick joke isn't it?

So we do what we can and since we have to pick and choose where we go, the first places will be where we have a vital National Interest, Economic or Security.

I mean we are not really as stupid as Europeans believe we are.

[kentuckydan]

Beez we could back to La fayette and telling them that the queen could have been there head of state ..who knows..

I call this all not a valuable for todays discussion..Maybe they would like to say just "shut up" and admire our speaches.

Dan ,
sorry you cant use history to explain and justify all.I am gratefull to the world including you, french,english scotish braves etc to have freed us...But as a person I would like repect for our sometimes diffirent vieuws in politics. You arent the Navy and me neither a mouse.


friendly to you


I think about the World Wars, the first sometimes.

Why did we get into that? We had NO National interest in European conflict.

Oh yes it was to "Make the World Safe for Democracy" which beez tells me
was NONE of our business.

The trigger LIE was the Lusitania. Turns out it DID have munitions on board.

It WAS a legitimate War target.

Just like the German Government told us, and NOT what the British Government
told us.

Had we stayed out? Germany might have won or at least there would have
been a stalemate and maybe a JUST Peace for both sides,

No Hitler coming to power, no Train to Russia sent by Germany with Lennin
in it.

MAYBE

and if so?

How different the rest of the 20th Century might have been

But you can't turn back the clock and so we invaded countries
that never attacked us

France and Germany

We overthrew the governments put ones in that suited us.

But we made sure things were done different than they
were after the First World War,

We did not rape Germany and Italy we helpedtheme and Europe rebuild

We gave a hand up to Japan as well, not a foot on their neck.

We helped make a difference and MAYBE after every thing is done
in 60 years we can look at Iraq and be able to say

We made a difference

Maybe not, but we did more than talk

Europe is handling Dafur, we have yet to see what will be accomplished.

[kentuckydan]

That may be true but you got involved in WW2 because Japan attacked you and Germany declared war on you so it wasn't really a case of intervening for bogus humanitarian reasons was it. In WW1 the USA did not really have time to play a decisive role anyway.

Yes beez and we put the bulk of our effort into Europe as a result we let the troops in the Phillepines swing as expendable no reinforcement we left them to die and most of them did.

Oh and we got into WW2, for the reasons you state, but mostly because we got involved in WW1

Not time to play a decisve role? Yes you would claim that wouldn't you.

Sorry old man you would not have won without us, We did not WIN the War, but we did help you to keep from losing it.

2 million U.S. soldiers fought on battlefields in France.

I think they made more of a differnce than you are willing to admit.

Britain, France, Russia and Germany had been bled dry by War
2 million fresh troops was not the paltry assistance you imply

[beezneesman]

Why should you care about Dafur? No reason at all. But the EU did make a commitment
and has spent how long now dithering talking and doing nothing at all?

You anology of not being able to be everywhere meaning being anywhere makes one a hypocrite sounds a lot like the starfish story.

A great storm had strown starfish along the entire length of a beach a man walking down it saw a little girl picking up starfish and throwing them back into the sea.

Child he said there are thousands of starfish thrown up onto this beach, what you are doing will not make any difference.

It will to this one she said picking up a starfish and throwing it back into the sea.

It would be nice if brutal Facistic Dictators could all be eliminated but the reality is the US cannot do it by itself and there seems to be a singular lack of willingness of some other countries to become involved. They are too busy making money

Oh yes they are willing to make self important statements

Never Again. We will put a Peacekeepers in Dafur to stop the genocide,.

But it's all Hot Air.

Just talking the talk and not walking the walk

It is morally wrong to promise things one has no intention of even trying to do

Americans keep being reminded of what the world is supposed to think of us.

I wander what people think about the EU and the UN?

Do you think anyone really believes that they CAN'T find two measly dozen helicopters???

I mean it is a sad sick joke isn't it?

So we do what we can and since we have to pick and choose where we go, the first places will be where we have a vital National Interest, Economic or Security.

I mean we are not really as stupid as Europeans believe we are.


Starfish? WTF?

Never said you were stupid but if as you say 'we have to pick and choose where we go, the first places will be where we have a vital National Interest, Economic or Security' then why invade Iraq in 2003 as Saddam's regime was boxed in and unlike the Taliban his regime was not playing host to al Qaeda's leadership.

Personally I think the EU is an even bigger waste of space than you do but then I would probably think the same about any organization that is 23/25 non British/Irish

[beezneesman]

I think about the World Wars, the first sometimes.

Why did we get into that? We had NO National interest in European conflict.

Oh yes it was to "Make the World Safe for Democracy" which beez tells me
was NONE of our business.

The trigger LIE was the Lusitania. Turns out it DID have munitions on board.

It WAS a legitimate War target.

Just like the German Government told us, and NOT what the British Government
told us.

Had we stayed out? Germany might have won or at least there would have
been a stalemate and maybe a JUST Peace for both sides,

No Hitler coming to power, no Train to Russia sent by Germany with Lennin
in it.

MAYBE

and if so?

How different the rest of the 20th Century might have been

But you can't turn back the clock and so we invaded countries
that never attacked us

France and Germany

We overthrew the governments put ones in that suited us.

But we made sure things were done different than they
were after the First World War,

We did not rape Germany and Italy we helpedtheme and Europe rebuild

We gave a hand up to Japan as well, not a foot on their neck.

We helped make a difference and MAYBE after every thing is done
in 60 years we can look at Iraq and be able to say

We made a difference

Maybe not, but we did more than talk

Europe is handling Dafur, we have yet to see what will be accomplished.


Lots of 'what ifs' and 'maybes' there

IIRC the Lusitania went down in 1915 which was quite sometime before America entered WW1 so I doubt the two issues were very strongly connected. The Germans attempting to get the Mexicans to attack America might have been a more important reason.

As for the British Gov not telling the American gov about munitions on the Lusitania do you really expect the British government in wartime to tell its military secrets to a foreign country with many citizens of German origin. I don't think so!!!!

You may be able to say lots of things about Iraq in 60 years but I suspect what you will say is that a new Sunni 'strongman' (lets call him Saddam Jr) was put in place with US military backup to re-establish the role of buffer against Iranian influence in the region. I give that scenario a lead-time of another 5 years max.

[beezneesman]

Sorry old man you would not have won without us, We did not WIN the War, but we did help you to keep from losing it.

Well I'm not going to disagree too strongly with that. The Germans were able to free up extra manpower after the Russians threw in the towel BUT much of that extra combat power was dissipated in their offensives of 1918. It was their last gasp and they learned the brutal lesson that the French and British had learned earlier about the superiority of the defensive (with the currently available military technology at the time)

2 million U.S. soldiers fought on battlefields in France.

I think they made more of a differnce than you are willing to admit.

Britain, France, Russia and Germany had been bled dry by War
2 million fresh troops was not the paltry assistance you imply

Dan the USA entered the war in April 1917 with virtually no army. They had to recruit, train, equip an army and ship it to Europe. I'm not going to denigrate their fighting efforts because they took some heavy casualties but the reason they took those heavy casualties was because they literally made all the same mistakes in offensive operations that the British and French had made before them and did not have enough time before November 1918 to really make the crucial difference.

The decisive factors on the Western Front which the British and French had learned from bitter experience were:

1. Much improved execution of attacks at night
2. Much improved coordination of artillery fire and huge mines to support attacks at night with rolling barrages in front of the infantry and most crucially with 'creepback' to catch enemy infantry emerging from their bunkers after the first barrage had rolled over
3. Much improved coordination between mass tank attacks and infantry.

In the end the tipping point was achieved when the British Army (which obviously included Empire forces as well) broke through and exploited a crucial weak point in the Hindenburg Line.

I should add the Americans played no part whatsoever in the defeat of the Ottoman Empire which was brought about by British and ANZAC troops and arab rebels.

If the war had gone on past Nov 1918 then I am sure the additions of extra American combat power would have been decisive but it didn't.

That's all I'm going to say on this particular tangent as I'm on holiday.