88 killed and not a comment

[Lucker]

A Boeing 737 crashed coming into Perm two nights ago , from moscow
All were killed -- 88
So why not a word ?

On board was General Gennady Troshev a Russian war hero but wanted in Chechnya for war crimes .His death was threatened .
Not one word telling us that five passengers bought tickets , had luggage loaded but never boarded the craft .
Specialists have reported that the debris is spread over 10km and consistent with a mid air explosion .
Radar evidence showed the plane disappeared off screen instantly .
Can we see the Russian press reports and TV coverage giving this information .
It looks like another cover up .

[Sveta's Hero]

I read about this story yesterday. It was surprising to me because I have a friend that lives in Perm.

All I read about the cause was that it was possibly engine failure.

[krevedko]

Our media report:

The Urals city of Perm is mourning the victims of Sunday’s air crash, which killed all 88 people on board, becoming Russia’s worst air disaster in the past two years.

The airliner, en route from Moscow to Perm (Flight 821), crashed at 3:10 a.m. Moscow time on Sunday. It left Moscow at 1:10 a.m., and contact with the plane was lost two hours later as it was landing in Perm. The Boeing 737 was operated by Aeroflot Nord, a subsidiary of Russia’s national airline Aeroflot. All 82 passengers and 6 crew members died, including 7 children and 18 foreign nationals. Those killed include General Gennady Troshev, an adviser to the Russian President on Cossack affairs.

A criminal case has been opened under Article 263 of the Russian Criminal Code. Investigators are looking into the cause of the crash, focusing on pilot error and technical fault. The black box data recorders have been found and are currently being examined.

Evgeny Bachurin, the head of the Federal Air Transport Agency, told reporters that a flight certificate for the Boeing 737 had been issued in May 2008, and the plane was in full order. The aircraft was last checked on September 7 at the Vnukovo Aviation Repair Plant.

The company will pay up to RUB 2 million (approx. $78,740) for each crash victim. Moscow authorities will also help bury those killed in the air disaster. Russian President Dmitry Medvedev and Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, along with several foreign leaders, have expressed their condolences for the crash victims.

Investigators were looking into ten possible causes of the catastrophe, including a technical failure, pilot error, and even a terrorist attack. Such a wide range of possible scenarios arose from the crew’s strange behavior during landing, the Vremya Novostei newspaper reported.

Irek Bikbov, chief air flight controller at the Perm airport, told reporters that the crew had reacted inadequately to the controllers’ instructions, doing exactly the opposite of what was ordered. He said that the crew had failed to land the plane and was ordered to make another circle before landing when the disaster occurred. The aircraft disappeared from radar screens at 3:10 a.m., after which a powerful explosion was seen.

According to Bikbov, the pilot failed to fly the plane at the requested altitude, suddenly rising instead of going down: it descended from 1,800 meters to 600 meters, and then rose back to 900 meters. Requested by the air controller to confirm the 900 meters altitude, the pilot allegedly said that the plane was descending. Yet it then rose to 1,200 meters—an altitude from which it was impossible to land—and the controller ordered the aircraft to make another circle. At this point, Bikbov asked if everything was okay on board, to which the pilot confirmed that everything was okay. Yet again the crew continued to misinterpret the instructions, turning left instead of right and beginning to descend, when the explosion occurred.

According to preliminary information reported by Vesti channel, the crash was caused by technical flaws and the explosion of the right engine, said Alexander Bastrykin, Chairman of the Investigative Committee of the Prosecutor General’s Office of Russia. According to Igor Levitin, the Transport Minister, there are no signs of a terrorist attack.

Some experts say the crew had been trying to carry out an emergency landing, which is why the plane crashed in an uninhabited area of the city—the pilot intentionally flew it towards railway tracks.


source: http://top.rbc.ru/english/index.shtml?/news/english/2008/09/15/15134923_bod.shtml

[Lucker]

Thanks
As I thought .
The salient information about Troshev is missing and the interesting fact of 5 passengers buying tickets , entering luggage but not boarding is missing .

[sunontheway]

Crazy paranoic Ramon. Of course it all was on TV yestarday, information about the general and missed passangers. It is a well known fact that there are always less passengers on a crashed plane than expected.

The scaring thing is that planes crash too often these days :eek: I am sorry to hear about one more tragedy :(

[huney]

... entering luggage but not boarding...

Roman are you sure? Debkafile says 'possible unaccompanied luggage'

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=5580

[sunontheway]

entering luggage but not boarding is missing .

It is easily possible. Happened with me once when I spent too much time in a parfume shop and missed the plane. But the luggage was entered. Other people who missed the same flight from London also entered luggage but couldn't manage to pass a security queue in time.

They say 5 people - three adults and two kids - arrived not in time and went to Perm by a train.

[fbibob]

Crazy paranoic Ramon. Of course it all was on TV yestarday, information about the general and missed passangers. It is a well known fact that there are always less passengers on a crashed plane than expected.

The scaring thing is that planes crash too often these days :eek: I am sorry to hear about one more tragedy :(

Here in the US, if a person does not board they remove their luggage from the plane.

It isn't paranoia if they really are out to get you.

[Lucker]

They say 5 people - three adults and two kids - arrived not in time and went to Perm by a train.[/QUOTE]

As for me being paranoid . Well , you would have to meet and make your own mind up
But as somone with a psychology background ( no , it is psychiatrists who are fruit cases) I am confident that I am not paranoid . Sinle minded very often etc but not a crank ..
My sources for my quotes are not DEBKA on this one but now the translator from Russian will not work. Will try again tomorrow
I would have to say to you , " Who are they ?" And Terrorists or contract killers would hardly dress to give the game away .
If you watch and follow the major accidents in Ukraine and Russia you will quickly see the cover up pattern and you almost never ever see any investigation reports or follow up details . Don't forget that all judicial matters are political . Their legal system does not do independence .
Of course there might be a genuine , innocent explanation but that is not how it invariably works over there .
It's just another game of Chess

[sunontheway]

Here in the US, if a person does not board they remove their luggage from the plane.
.

Should be the same here. But sometimes your luggage travel somewhere else by mistake.
But as I understood the information was: "they were checking if the luggage of missed passengers were on the plane or not". Then they found those passengers themselves.

[sunontheway]

As for me being paranoid .

Well you like to exaggerate, so I just follow your example ;) Your obsession is abnormal, reduce some offensive tonality and nobody will call you paranoid, psychologist :yo:


Don't forget that all judicial matters are political . Their legal system does not do independence .


Yeah, this sucks

[Lucker]

It bothers me not one jot what you think or say .
Don't bother ever addressing me again .I will pull through .

[dzerassa]

All I read about the cause was that it was possibly engine failure.

they say so on tv though one russian pilot said it is a very reliable type of plane.

also they say that the captain of the plane wasn't adequately reacting to the commands from the airport.

[dzerassa]

Thanks
As I thought .
The salient information about Troshev is missing and the interesting fact of 5 passengers buying tickets , entering luggage but not boarding is missing .

no, they said on our tv there were several people who bought tickets but didn't board the plane

[Lucker]

Jurassic
My very point -- thanks . But it is leaving their luggage that is the key point .
Yes, Boeing is amazingly reliable and 737 particularly . This one had just finished tests a week ago .
All I am saying is that the red light in my brain switched on , just as it did with the train crash last year on the Moscow -St Petersburg line .
And all the bombings in Volgorad last year and the spate of current bombings in Sochi .

[Sveta's Hero]

Didn't another Aeroflot 737 go down less than a month ago on its way to Iran?

[Lucker]

You are quite right , Waiting , which itself is cause for more than a raised eyebrow .
Now they are saying that the Black Box recorders are very badly damaged .
I will bet a dollar that later we are told they reveal nothing which is something I have never heard of before .
Perhaps I am paranoid but it could mean I have a developed instinct or nose .

[Lucker]

Not sure it was Aeroflot but it was a 737

[dzerassa]

Jurassic
My very point -- thanks . But it is leaving their luggage that is the key point .
Yes, Boeing is amazingly reliable and 737 particularly . This one had just finished tests a week ago .
All I am saying is that the red light in my brain switched on , just as it did with the train crash last year on the Moscow -St Petersburg line .
And all the bombings in Volgorad last year and the spate of current bombings in Sochi .

but isn't luggage screened? i thought security here is very strict

[beezneesman]

A Boeing 737 crashed coming into Perm two nights ago , from moscow
All were killed -- 88
So why not a word ?

On board was General Gennady Troshev a Russian war hero but wanted in Chechnya for war crimes .His death was threatened .
Not one word telling us that five passengers bought tickets , had luggage loaded but never boarded the craft .
Specialists have reported that the debris is spread over 10km and consistent with a mid air explosion .
Radar evidence showed the plane disappeared off screen instantly .
Can we see the Russian press reports and TV coverage giving this information .
It looks like another cover up .

Aircraft crash because of all kinds of reasons but it is tempting to speculate on whether Troshev knew a bit too much than was good for him about where Putin's bodies are buried.

[cracker]

Aircraft crash because of all kinds of reasons but it is tempting to speculate on whether Troshev knew a bit too much than was good for him about where Putin's bodies are buried.




Guys, do you know it is very sad to read this topic.
You try to say again about fooking politics.
At least someone of you was thinking that there were perished 88 people and 12 children including a baby who was only 11 months old.
Please, stop discussing about this tragedy I think it is not humanely.
Thank you very much guys for your understanding.

[beezneesman]

Guys, do you know it is very sad to read this topic.
You try to say again about fooking politics.
At least someone of you was thinking that there were perished 88 people and 12 children including a baby who was only 11 months old.
Please, stop discussing about this tragedy I think it is not humanely.
Thank you very much guys for your understanding.

Yes of course Cracker. You are absolutely right.

[Lucker]

No she is not right and her view is sanctimonious nonsense .
To assume that we did not and do not share normal human grief is patronising and a huge insult .
To carry the suggested view through to other matters quickly shows how absurd and completely unconsidered her suggestion was and is .
If Cracker was so especially grief stricken , it is a pity it took her so long to suddenly remember that in this Forum nearly two days after the accident .
This topic is concerned about aspects of justice which may or may not have been present in this incident .
Please think more carefully when you use other people's grief and misery as an excuse to try and make a very cheap point .

[alenika]

Crazy paranoic Ramon. Of course it all was on TV yestarday, information about the general and missed passangers. It is a well known fact that there are always less passengers on a crashed plane than expected.

The scaring thing is that planes crash too often these days :eek: I am sorry to hear about one more tragedy :( I knew about this right after it happened - on news and from friends living there. crazy paranoic - that's right.
And it's not necessary to whine of victims anywhere to mourn on them.

[beezneesman]

No she is not right and her view is sanctimonious nonsense .
To assume that we did not and do not share normal human grief is patronising and a huge insult .
To carry the suggested view through to other matters quickly shows how absurd and completely unconsidered her suggestion was and is .
If Cracker was so especially grief stricken , it is a pity it took her so long to suddenly remember that in this Forum nearly two days after the accident .
This topic is concerned about aspects of justice which may or may not have been present in this incident .
Please think more carefully when you use other people's grief and misery as an excuse to try and make a very cheap point .

Ramon not everything is a conspiracy - sometimes sh1t really does just happen

[cracker]

No she is not right and her view is sanctimonious nonsense .
To assume that we did not and do not share normal human grief is patronising and a huge insult .
To carry the suggested view through to other matters quickly shows how absurd and completely unconsidered her suggestion was and is .
If Cracker was so especially grief stricken , it is a pity it took her so long to suddenly remember that in this Forum nearly two days after the accident .
This topic is concerned about aspects of justice which may or may not have been present in this incident .
Please think more carefully when you use other people's grief and misery as an excuse to try and make a very cheap point .

Dear Sir,
I agree with you maybe I am a sanctimonious person, but
I have never been doubting you are a very compassionate chap. You have your big warm and lovely heart,
so if you like to continue talking about this tragedy you are welcome !!!
Because you are the main expert for everything and everywhere.

Anyway, thank you very much Dear Simon for your understanding.

[vitashenka]

Our foeign friends wory a lot about everithing what heppened in russia and everything - is terract to thier minds. Why nobody of u discussed here recently catastrothy with spain plane, or with train in USA?

Yes, it is a terrble situation... and after it really start to think about this life, about "today you are live, tomorrow can be last day" :( In our smi said that it wasnt blowen up in air, because if it could be blowed up in air, the pieces of plane would bigger than it is. The meteo situation wasnt very easy. More over, my father always tell that civil pilots hardly able to cope with unusual situations. I agree, in russa it is heppen to often with such kinds of tredegy but it doesnt mean that it is teract. Lets see what will be result after studing black box. Unfortunatly we can't to get back died people. And i think how lucky were who werent on the board. Last year i remember the same tradegy, when mom let her small doughter fly back to home on the plane, because she thought it is faster and more comfortable. Mom was back on the train. But this plan fall because of big storm. Some things in our life are rally FATAL

[Sveta's Hero]

Our foeign friends wory a lot about everithing what heppened in russia and everything - is terract to thier minds. Why nobody of u discussed here recently catastrothy with spain plane, or with train in USA?

Yes, it is a terrble situation... and after it really start to think about this life, about "today you are live, tomorrow can be last day" :( In our smi said that it wasnt blowen up in air, because if it could be blowed up in air, the pieces of plane would bigger than it is. The meteo situation wasnt very easy. More over, my father always tell that civil pilots hardly able to cope with unusual situations. I agree, in russa it is heppen to often with such kinds of tredegy but it doesnt mean that it is teract. Lets see what will be result after studing black box. Unfortunatly we can't to get back died people. And i think how lucky were who werent on the board. Last year i remember the same tradegy, when mom let her small doughter fly back to home on the plane, because she thought it is faster and more comfortable. Mom was back on the train. But this plan fall because of big storm. Some things in our life are rally FATAL


How many foreign friends did you see write anything about terrorists? Why are you so upset? It's obvious you did not read everyones post here. Try to be calm.

I admit that this crash did worry me when I read about it because I have a friend that lives in Perm.

[dzerassa]

well in one thing ramon is right, some people said on tv it exploded in the air.

though some say it was technical problem, let's wait until the results of investigation. besides exploding in the air maybe caused by technical problem too

[Lucker]

Ramon not everything is a conspiracy - sometimes sh1t really does just happen

Come on . Do you think I don't appreciate that ?
I have described a very easy to understand scenario and said there are areas that are disturbing .
It is most unfortunate that the Black box has already been officially described as unlikely to yield good information because of assumed damage and/or heat .
Listen to the explanation of the recent Spanish air crash that has just been released . That is what people deserve from situations where an "accident " has happened . I am simply concerned that the same standards are practised everywhere and particularly in countries where people regularly disappear and get killed for reasons which never become clear ..

[Sveta's Hero]

And about the train crash in California. The probable cause was the engineer was sending SMS messeges and did not obey a red signal. The evidence of this is that he sent an SMS messege within seconds of going through the signal.

[Umka]

"not a word"?????
You need help, Ramon. I was in Nice and all channels we had in our hotel were talking about that.
Russian channels in russian and Russian channels in English.

[beezneesman]

well in one thing ramon is right, some people said on tv it exploded in the air.

though some say it was technical problem, let's wait until the results of investigation. besides exploding in the air maybe caused by technical problem too

Even if it did explode in mid air it could still be due to a 'simple' technical problem. IIRC about 10 years ago a Boeing 747 exploded in mid air over the sea close to New York. The accident was attributed to fuel vapour building up in the fuel tanks.

[Voobrazheniye]

Our foeign friends wory a lot about everithing what heppened in russia and everything - is terract to thier minds. Why nobody of u discussed here recently catastrothy with spain plane, or with train in USA?


Actually, in these times the FIRST thing I wonder about when I hear of a disaster that kills a lot of people is whether it was caused intentionally, as opposed to being an unfortunate accident of weather, equipment malfunction, or fate. The Spanish air crash a few months back, the communter train in Los Angeles in the past week, major industrial explosions or fires... it always occurs to me first to wonder if they are acts of terrorism or have some other insidious reason for occurring.

But, the only thing I had heard about this particular crash, until now, is the notion that the pilot had done his best to keep the plane from crashing in the city where it might kill more people. A friend had read that. Whether it's true or not in this case, it is an action that we do see in many such cases, and it works for me to believe that this Russian pilot would have been no less heroic than an American or British pilot in trying to prevent further loss of innocent life. I hope this proves out to have been the case.

As for the cause... there will be an investigation and a report. Whether the determination is credible and whether you choose to believe it is up to each person to decide. But this was an internal Russian incident, and it really matters only what Russians choose to believe about it. I don't see where it makes a difference what us outsiders think in this matter.

Grieve for the dead, respect their memories, and hope that it never happens to you.

[Voobrazheniye]

Even if it did explode in mid air it could still be due to a 'simple' technical problem. IIRC about 10 years ago a Boeing 747 exploded in mid air over the sea close to New York. The accident was attributed to fuel vapour building up in the fuel tanks.

Some people (conspiracy theorists) still do not accept that explanation for that particular mid-air explosion and hold fast to the idea that it was brought down by a missile fired from a boat just offshore.

I remember that flight. A few days later, I was on a Virgin Atlantic flight taking basically the same route at the same time of day from Washington to London.

[dzerassa]

how come we discuss south ossetia in this tread? did i confuse topics?




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ramonrive and Dzerassa, you previous posts regarding South Osetia have been moved to Plucky Georgia thread
http://www.gogabber.com/showthread.php?p=7923
Moderator
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[saprosky]

About last airplane crash in Madrid, first think in Spain is always a terrorist attack (yes, we always have in mind) but after some minutes it was rule out.

Except 10-20 minutes from crash, information was fluid (except passengers list, but it seems a burocratic not a technical problem because some laws protect passengers identity). TV images were broadcasting in live from a traffic control camera from the beginning.

Even everybody explained his own opinion, pilots, engineeers, press (the most qualified of course) about what could happened. It was second take off try when crash happened due to a mechanical problem in first attempt.

Most difficult was identify bodies. But specialists work hard till get all identified. So nobody can't say investigation is not clear. Even the results will be showed in Internet. The investigation goes by 2 ways: technical comission and judicial and for now, it seems that a flaps problem were the cause.

BTW, all experts say that a plane with one motor can flight, so if one motor explode and dont break nothing more, the plane can flight.

[beezneesman]

About last airplane crash in Madrid, first think in Spain is always a terrorist attack (yes, we always have in mind) but after some minutes it was rule out.

Except 10-20 minutes from crash, information was fluid (except passengers list, but it seems a burocratic not a technical problem because some laws protect passengers identity). TV images were broadcasting in live from a traffic control camera from the beginning.

Even everybody explained his own opinion, pilots, engineeers, press (the most qualified of course) about what could happened. It was second take off try when crash happened due to a mechanical problem in first attempt.

Most difficult was identify bodies. But specialists work hard till get all identified. So nobody can't say investigation is not clear. Even the results will be showed in Internet. The investigation goes by 2 ways: technical comission and judicial and for now, it seems that a flaps problem were the cause.

BTW, all experts say that a plane with one motor can flight, so if one motor explode and dont break nothing more, the plane can flight.

Flying a twin engined A/C after failure of one engine is actually a lot harder than many people think! I once had to bail out from one which had an engine failure at 1800 feet AGL so the pilot could lighten the load to make an emergency landing. Admittedly that was twin piston engines not an airliner but it is not an easy business to control a twin with only one functioning engine.

[Lucker]

Well said Sapristi
Exactly the system I want the RYWM to want from their country -- total transparency and co-operartion .

[Hoopy]

Flying a twin engined A/C after failure of one engine is actually a lot harder than many people think! I once had to bail out from one which had an engine failure at 1800 feet AGL so the pilot could lighten the load to make an emergency landing (admittedly that was twin piston engines not an airliner).
Only bad thing was you had a parachute :rolleyes:

[Lucker]

[
I once had to bail out from one which had an engine failure at 1800 feet AGL so the pilot could lighten the load to make an emergency landing (admittedly that was twin piston engines not an airliner).[/QUOTE]


Are you a bit of a Porker , Captain Beeswax ? Do we have both Captain and General Tubby ?

[beezneesman]

[
Are you a bit of a Porker , Captain Beeswax ? Do we have both Captain and General Tubby ?

OK I'll qualify that 'me and 5 other blokes had to bail to lighten the load' :-)

[beezneesman]

Only bad thing was you had a parachute :rolleyes:

Even the last few seconds of freefall to oblivion as an Englishman would have been preferable to spending a life time as a skirty boy ;)

[saprosky]

Flying a twin engined A/C after failure of one engine is actually a lot harder than many people think! I once had to bail out from one which had an engine failure at 1800 feet AGL so the pilot could lighten the load to make an emergency landing. Admittedly that was twin piston engines not an airliner but it is not an easy business to control a twin with only one functioning engine.

Pilots said that is a normal training flight with 1 motor and even take off. Thats was the reason of discussions in Spain. Obviously is not the best way, But plane dont fall down for flight with only 1 engine.

First hypothesis said was fire in turbine engine, but take off was filmed (in fact all movements are filmed) and soon rule out. The fire after crash was the reason to suppose that could be a terrorist attack, but fire was for fuel load.

People talk everyday about what happened, but today, 3 weeks after crash, nobody knows :confused:

[beezneesman]

Pilots said that is a normal training flight with 1 motor and even take off. Thats was the reason of discussions in Spain. Obviously is not the best way, But plane dont fall down for flight with only 1 engine.

When things like this happen it's rarely a result of just one thing going wrong.

[krevedko]

OK I'll qualify that 'me and 5 other blokes had to bail to lighten the load' :-)

I always thought it was wiser to lighten the load before you board the plain, actually, to avoid any embarassing situations in case of heavy turbulance. But never mind me, I'm just too scared to fly on board of airplanes. :becky:

[saprosky]

When things like this happen it's rarely a result of just one thing going wrong.


Yes, I agree. In my opinion more than one problem happened.

[saprosky]

Lasts news say that russian prosecutors will investigate Aeroflot.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLG607825

[alenika]

....... ................. ..........

[Lucker]

Bella ,
How do you justify applauding an innapropriate Post ?
If you do not improve your behaviour ,I shall resign from the Russian Patriots Club .
Then you will be sorry .

[Lucker]

[QUOTE=krevedko;7991]I always thought it was wiser to lighten the load before you board the plain, actually, to avoid any embarassing situations in case of heavy turbulance.

Are you suggesting that Russian airlines should advise their customers to have a good shit before setting off ?
I want to let you into a little secret .
The passengers worked that one out a long time ago .

I know now why Jimbo was able to fly from Kiev to Lyiv for $12. Ukrainian airlines detour over Chernobyl to dump their excess baggage . This helps produce special mushrooms on the ground which are sent to France as truffles .
================================================== ===================
Ramon although this was mean't in humour can you please watch what you write.
================================================== ===================

[huney]

I know now why Jimbo was able to fly from Kiev to Lyiv for $12. Ukrainian airlines detour over Chernobyl to dump their excess baggage . This helps produce special mushrooms on the ground which are sent to France as truffles .Thus confirming that the French are big shits .

Ah, you have not yet discovered the most diabolical secret... The mushrooms are sent to Italy before being smuggled along the coast to Marseille then loaded onto donkeys for the journey high up into the Luberon where they are buried under old oak trees to be discovered by specially trained pigs and dogs and sold in local markets for a king's ransom (well, perhaps a lord's ransom). The true gourmand would never consume a truffle not of la terre de belle France. :p

[vitashenka]

How many foreign friends did you see write anything about terrorists? Why are you so upset? It's obvious you did not read everyones post here. Try to be calm.

I admit that this crash did worry me when I read about it because I have a friend that lives in Perm.

1. I ment person who started to represent it like terrorizm
2. I am upset, because i really very sad about people and about life which can be suddenly stoped even in young age
3. I dont understand why u ask me to be calm. I am calm

[vitashenka]

But, the only thing I had heard about this particular crash, until now, is the notion that the pilot had done his best to keep the plane from crashing in the city where it might kill more people.

To be honest i think that it was just occosian that plane didnt fall on the city. I can't imagine when plane is fall down and pilots in during this time think how to drive it out the city. My father - proffesional pilot with a lot of hours driving plane in extrimal situations, also have very big doubts about it. Yes, i know, it's not right time to tell such kinds of things about dead people, but if we discuss it, so...

[vitashenka]

About last airplane crash in Madrid, first think in Spain is always a terrorist attack (yes, we always have in mind) but after some minutes it was rule out.

Except 10-20 minutes from crash, information was fluid (except passengers list, but it seems a burocratic not a technical problem because some laws protect passengers identity). TV images were broadcasting in live from a traffic control camera from the beginning.

Even everybody explained his own opinion, pilots, engineeers, press (the most qualified of course) about what could happened. It was second take off try when crash happened due to a mechanical problem in first attempt.

Most difficult was identify bodies. But specialists work hard till get all identified. So nobody can't say investigation is not clear. Even the results will be showed in Internet. The investigation goes by 2 ways: technical comission and judicial and for now, it seems that a flaps problem were the cause.

BTW, all experts say that a plane with one motor can flight, so if one motor explode and dont break nothing more, the plane can flight.

It was terrible situation.... u want to go out the plane and know that its not work right, but u cant... I saw on tv like relatives of people who died in that plane called them and explained that they can't go out and what there are technical problems. It is terrible to imagine also how feel relatives in this time :(

[saprosky]

It was terrible situation.... u want to go out the plane and know that its not work right, but u cant... I saw on tv like relatives of people who died in that plane called them and explained that they can't go out and what there are technical problems. It is terrible to imagine also how feel relatives in this time :(

At beggining someone said that people didnt want fly with this plane, but seems not true. Survivors said that nobody feel something wrong. It seems tha plane get speed but could not take off and go out track and crash and explode.

It was very stupid, because if you want leave plane before take off its so easy. So some press say wrong things before hear survivors. Disinformation is everywhere.

Now, few minutes ago, TV news said that filtration from official report say that problem were flaps and company didnt make daily check of them.

[vitashenka]

[quote=krevedko;7991]

I know now why Jimbo was able to fly from Kiev to Lyiv for $12. Ukrainian airlines detour over Chernobyl to dump their excess baggage . This helps produce special mushrooms on the ground which are sent to France as truffles .Thus confirming that the French are big sh1ts .

WHO is the xxxx, Ramon, it is you, a big stinking xxxx

================================================== =======
Warning - No personal attacks please - Moderator

[Sveta's Hero]

1. I ment person who started to represent it like terrorizm
2. I am upset, because i really very sad about people and about life which can be suddenly stoped even in young age
3. I dont understand why u ask me to be calm. I am calm


Sorry, but you don't seem calm after reading your posts.

[Lucker]

[QUOTE=ramonrive;8028]

WHO is the xxxx, Ramon, it is you, a big stinking xxxx

================================================== =======
Warning - No personal attacks please - Moderator

Vita,

Feel free to write any time and unburden yourself .I know it is hard growing up .
If you feel you want to rub a nice fat , warm turd , just think of me and be happy .

[vitashenka]

Yes, Paul, i am not call just now. Because our dear moderators allow for Rimon to tell SHIRT ABOUT NATION, but mine post was corrected. So there is FAIRLY? I am very dissapointed in this forum
================================================== ===================
Vita please do not put such big letters.Ramons post has been edited.
================================================== ===================

[Sveta's Hero]

Let's just try to keep it peaceful. Both posts were apparently edited.

[vitashenka]

Thank you, moderator
All what i wanted just fairly

[Lucker]

Just to show the absurdity , I give a very brief report from a Russian site which reads as follows .
The recent situation ( Georgia) may provoke increased activity of international terrorists in Russia .This was stated by the chairman of National Anti-Terrorist Committee ( NAC) , Director in Russian FSB , Alexander Bortnikov . He made this statement at a briefing in Volgorad where special exercises took place involving SCO members .
The meeting was attended by representatives from Kazakhstan, China , Krygzstan , Uzbekistan and Russia . Observers from Pakistan , Iran ( !!!) and Belarus were present .
Does anyone think that every question I raised was not also raised by the FSB and another hundred , no doubt .
The interesting points are the degree of post accident transparency and the reaction following me raising the matter ( hysteria ) and the authorities doing the same things in private -- regardless of what they may or may not say later .
I think your reactions might be more lucid if you could find ways to get actual information on what actually goes on .

[vitashenka]

specialists who works with black box said for sure that the plane wasnt blow up in air, so actually the version about terracts is Insolvent

[Lucker]

Vita ,
I am sorry but I simply do not take any such statement at face value .
The authorities at the outset indicated that the black box was damaged ( !) and unlikely to provide much information .
To then have a detailed and considered assessment so fast is most unusual and encourages conspiracy thoughts . To take any such report seriously , we require a full and complete statement from the correct reporting bodies .
Even then , the background and History is such that any report would be taken with a pinch of salt . For if the explosion was the result of direct or indirect Chechen action , the FSB will be very wary of upsetting Kadyrov . He is a particular thorn in the side to Russia at the moment because of his insistence for a greater cut of oil revenue plus the embarrassment caused by the continuing evidence of involvement of Chechnyan troops in Georgia and their conduct . So far Kadyrov has been Russia's ideal stooge , but , increasingly this disturbed individual has been giving expert watchers considerable cause for alarm .Charitably we can say that his character is very volatile and he is a smouldering volcano if he does not get his own way .

[vitashenka]

Rimond, unfortunatly the condition of russian small airline is so much bad that it is more likly because of it or person's mistake than terract. U may to not believe my sourses, but it doesnt mean that it's not true. But, ok, lets wait official version after decoding black box

[Lucker]

Don't forget that this plane underwent maintenance checks just a week before the crash .
Also Boeings are one of miracles of modern technology --- see Jeremy Clarkeson's book --- they can fly on one engine and are nearly impossible to crash .
I do not claim to know the answers but I must admit I am highly suspicious .

[vitashenka]

Don't forget that this plane underwent maintenance checks just a week before the crash .
Also Boeings are one of miracles of modern technology --- see Jeremy Clarkeson's book --- they can fly on one engine and are nearly impossible to crash .
I do not claim to know the answers but I must admit I am highly suspicious .

recent maintenance means nothing, at least in russia. More over... Do u know how old is plane? it is even not like second hand. More over.. meteo comdition were difficult and at night very easy possible disorientation of pilot, it is like illusion which difficult to cope with. More over to fly at night it is also not easy if pilot not rekaxed enoth befor.

[Lucker]

You will remember this discussion got heated though all I did was to say that the circumstances seemed strange and that I smelt a " rat" .

A certain Gennady Kurzenkov who is head of the State Aviation Inspection Service had this to say a few hours ago .
The pilots ( yes , plural ) gave false information about their qualifications to fly .
Further , they provided false documents which showed they had passed pre flight courses .
And , folks , the flight attendant ( their singular , not mine ) had made false documents saying they were qualified to fly on international flights --- what this had to do with an internal flight is impossible to even contemplate .

I think we can safely conclude that any investigation is going to be a complete farce . You would not have dared invent crap like that if it was a fifth rate TV comedy .
That plane was blown up .
I have never read so much horse shit for a long time .

[Neilikka]

I think, you are giving us false information about you yourself right now. It seems to be your hobby to search for such nonsense everywhere where nobody will even guess to look for. Does it bring you any kind of satisfaction? Ramon, what has happened to you in Russia? Have you been robbed by Tambov bratva or what?

[Lucker]

Bella ,
I read your Newspapers daily , or a few of them .
Is that what you call searching for nonsense ?
Why Russians make such wild statements without ever checking for facts is beyond me .
Just check today's Moscow Times .. ... it will take you about 30 seconds and I suspect official reports are available in every half decent rag -- as we call them .
Of course , buying a new pair of spectacles is another option ROFL

[Neilikka]

Firstly, Moscow News is a weekly newspaper. It's long, so I can imagine that you read it every day in small portions. But, sorry, there haven't been such an article in it this week. Secondly,here are its contents for this week, try to find anything like your post.

18:54 | Interview
Russian Fashion goes Wild
By Darya Chernyshova
The world of fashion gathers in Moscow this week for a look at the country’s changing styles

News
U.S. Election Watch
News
Russia election monitors snub U.S. presidential poll
News
Putin promotes SCO at international summit
News
In Brief - Report: Russia“trying to influence” Somali hijack
News
Police detain leader of Russia’s largest sect
News
Guilty verdict in top murder case
News
Regional official on trial after gathering over $10M in illegal taxes
News
Crime Briefs - 2 Jesuit priests killed in Moscow
News
Georgian PM dismissed in post-war shake-up
News
Russia ratifies treaties with breakaway provinces
News
Abkhazia questions EU security plan
Local
Space tourist backs private access to orbit center
Local
Young Communists mark anniversary
News
Bond girl “traitor” say communists
News
Paris removes ‘zoophile’
Local
War and peace contrast in Exhibition
Local
Moscow’s Celts forge new Hallowe’en traditions
Columnists
It’s not my problem!
Interview
Russian Fashion goes Wild
Local
Taking their best shot at photography

[Lucker]

Bella ,
Take my word for it .
It is there with todays date on it and headlined , " Perm crash Pilots used Fake Papers "
And note !!!!!!!!!!!!!! I said Moscow Times and I meant it .
Not Moscow News .

You so called Russian Academics are useless !!!!!!!!!!!ROFL

[Neilikka]

Yes, Ramon, you were right!
I have found this article in the Moscow Times. I have guessed you mistook one paper for another, girlish memory, alas!
Perm Crash Pilots Used Fake Papers

31 October 2008
The pilots of the Aeroflot-Nord jetliner that crashed during its approach to the Perm airport last month gave false information about their qualifications to fly, a top aviation safety investigator said Thursday.

The damning comments by Gennady Kurzenkov, head of the State Aviation Inspection Service, appeared to confirm suspicion that pilot error was to blame for the Sept. 14 crash, which killed all 88 people on board.

Kurzenkov said the pilots of the Boeing 737 had submitted false documents to the airline showing that they had passed preflight courses, Itar-Tass reported. He did not elaborate.

The flight attendants also had false documents saying they were qualified to fly on international flights, he said. The Aeroflot-Nord flight was a domestic flight from Moscow to Perm.

The crash was caused by "a lack of coordination by the crew and their insufficient preparation for flights," Kurzenkov said.

Aeroflot-Nord officials could not be reached for comment after office hours Thursday. The airline has previously denied that its pilots lacked the necessary experience.

Aeroflot-Nord is a subsidiary of state-owned Aeroflot. After the crash, Aeroflot banned all of its subsidiaries from using the airline's name and logo in an attempt to protect its reputation.

Transportation Minister Igor Levitin has said the 737 had no technical problems and that both of its engines were in proper order before the flight. He also said there had been no midair explosion.

Levitin's comments came after a crash investigator told Kommersant that the tragedy had been the result of pilot error due to inexperience.

The plane burst into a ball of fire at an altitude of about 1 kilometer, apparently after an engine caught fire, scattering debris across an area of 10 square kilometers. The plane was making a second attempt at landing in difficult weather conditions.

What sorrow! What a shame!

[Lucker]

What you didn't notice was that I got today's copy , yesterday .
VIP

[Neilikka]

:eek:

How could it happen, Mr Bond?