Plucky little Georgia?

[Neilikka]

For many people the sight of Russian tanks streaming across a border in August has uncanny echoes of Prague 1968. That cold war reflex is natural enough, but after two decades of Russian retreat from those bastions it is misleading. Not every development in the former Soviet Union is a replay of Soviet history.

The clash between Russia and Georgia over South Ossetia, which escalated dramatically yesterday, in truth has more in common with the Falklands war of 1982 than it does with a cold war crisis. When the Argentine junta was basking in public approval for its bloodless recovery of Las Malvinas, Henry Kissinger anticipated Britain's widely unexpected military response with the comment: "No great power retreats for ever." Maybe today Russia has stopped the long retreat to Moscow which started under Gorbachev.

Back in the late 1980s, as the USSR waned, the red army withdrew from countries in eastern Europe which plainly resented its presence as the guarantor of unpopular communist regimes. That theme continued throughout the new republics of the deceased Soviet Union, and on into the premiership of Putin, under whom Russian forces were evacuated even from the country's bases in Georgia.

To many Russians this vast geopolitical retreat from places which were part of Russia long before the dawn of communist rule brought no bonus in relations with the west. The more Russia drew in its horns, the more Washington and its allies denounced the Kremlin for its imperial ambitions.

Unlike in eastern Europe, for instance, today in breakaway states such as South Ossetia or Abkhazia, Russian troops are popular. Vladimir Putin's picture is more widely displayed than that of the South Ossetian president, the former Soviet wrestling champion Eduard Kokoity. The Russians are seen as protectors against a repeat of ethnic cleansing by Georgians.

In 1992, the west backed Eduard Shevardnadze's attempts to reassert Georgia's control over these regions. The then Georgian president's war was a disaster for his nation. It left 300,000 or more refugees "cleansed" by the rebel regions, but for Ossetians and Abkhazians the brutal plundering of the Georgian troops is the most indelible memory.
Georgians have nursed their humiliation ever since. Although Mikheil Saakashvili has done little for the refugees since he came to power early in 2004 - apart from move them out of their hostels in central Tbilisi to make way for property development - he has spent 70% of the Georgian budget on his military. At the start of the week he decided to flex his muscles.

Devoted to achieving Nato entry for Georgia, Saakashvili has sent troops to Iraq and Afghanistan - and so clearly felt he had American backing. The streets of the Georgian capital are plastered with posters of George W Bush alongside his Georgian protege. George W Bush avenue leads to Tbilisi airport. But he has ignored Kissinger's dictum: "Great powers don't commit suicide for their allies." Perhaps his neoconservative allies in Washington have forgotten it, too. Let's hope not.

Like Galtieri in 1982, Saakashvili faces a domestic economic crisis and public disillusionment. In the years since the so-called Rose revolution, the cronyism and poverty that characterised the Shevardnadze era have not gone away. Allegations of corruption and favouritism towards his mother's clan, together with claims of election fraud, led to mass demonstrations against Saakashvili last November. His ruthless security forces - trained, equipped and subsidised by the west - thrashed the protesters. Lashing out at the Georgians' common enemy in South Ossetia would certainly rally them around the president, at least in the short term.

Last September, President Saakashvili suddenly turned on his closest ally in the Rose revolution, defence minister Irakli Okruashvili. Each man accused his former blood brother of mafia links and profiting from contraband. Whatever the truth, the fact that the men seen by the west as the heroes of a post-Shevardnadze clean-up accused each other of vile crimes should warn us against picking a local hero in Caucasian politics.

Western geopolitical commentators stick to cold war simplicities about Russia bullying plucky little Georgia. However, anyone familiar with the Caucasus knows that the state bleating about its victim status at the hands of a bigger neighbour can be just as nasty to its smaller subjects. Small nationalisms are rarely sweet-natured.

Worse still, western backing for "equip and train" programmes in Russia's backyard don't contribute to peace and stability if bombastic local leaders such as Saakashvili see them as a guarantee of support even in a crisis provoked by his own actions. He seems to have thought that the valuable oil pipeline passing through his territory, together with the Nato advisers intermingled with his troops, would prevent Russia reacting militarily to an incursion into South Ossetia. That calculation has proved disastrously wrong.

The question now is whether the conflict can be contained, or whether the west will be drawn in, raising the stakes to desperate levels. To date the west has operated radically different approaches to secession in the Balkans, where pro-western microstates get embassies, and the Caucasus, where the Caucasian boundaries drawn up by Stalin, are deemed sacrosanct.

In the Balkans, the west promoted the disintegration of multiethnic Yugoslavia, climaxing with their recognition of Kosovo's independence in February. If a mafia-dominated microstate like Montenegro can get western recognition, why shouldn't flawed, pro-Russian, unrecognised states aspire to independence, too?

Given its extraordinary ethnic complexity, Georgia is a post-Soviet Union in miniature. If westerners readily conceded non-Russian republics' right to secede from the USSR in 1991, what is the logic of insisting that non-Georgians must remain inside a microempire which happens to be pro-western?

Other people's nationalisms are like other people's love affairs, or, indeed, like dog fights. These are things wise people don't get involved in. A war in the Caucasus is never a straightforward moral crusade - but then, how many wars are?

• Mark Almond is a history lecturer at Oriel College, Oxford

The Gardian, August, 9, 2008

[dzerassa]

Where is beezneesman? he is very sensitive about folklands, i even offered to move either folkland closer to british islesor vice versa :)

[dzerassa]

Given its extraordinary ethnic complexity, Georgia is a post-Soviet Union in miniature. If westerners readily conceded non-Russian republics' right to secede from the USSR in 1991, what is the logic of insisting that non-Georgians must remain inside a microempire which happens to be pro-western?


finally someone said it! really! it's a little empire, but neither south ossetia or abhazia r part of it. i really admire how sarkozy and the company say that territory of georgia should be preserved. as if it is sarkozy decided for the population. let him think about france, we somehow manage without europeans in south ossetia and abhazia. they now turned everything upside down saying that eu observers will be in south ossetia and georgia. it was clear from what medvedev was saying that they will be in buffer zone whixh russian troops will leave. noone waits for them in south ossetia.

[alpine-frolic]

finally someone said it! really! it's a little empire, but neither south ossetia or abhazia r part of it. i really admire how sarkozy and the company say that territory of georgia should be preserved. as if it is sarkozy decided for the population. let him think about france, we somehow manage without europeans in south ossetia and abhazia. they now turned everything upside down saying that eu observers will be in south ossetia and georgia. it was clear from what medvedev was saying that they will be in buffer zone whixh russian troops will leave. noone waits for them in south ossetia.

We prefer Zarkossi taking care of Georgia than about us!!! Send it to Georgia (usa) he will be happy so there.

[RiverRock]

If Ossetian and Abhazian's don't want to live in Georgian territory anymore then they are free to move to Russia.

There are thousands of Russians in North Carolina, but that doesn't mean it belongs to Russia.

[beezneesman]

If Ossetian and Abhazian's don't want to live in Georgian territory anymore then they are free to move to Russia.

There are thousands of Russians in North Carolina, but that doesn't mean it belongs to Russia.


There's ~150,000 Russians in London. I guess that means it is now officially part of the Russian Federation :rolleyes:

[brown-raider]

If Ossetian and Abhazian's don't want to live in Georgian territory anymore then they are free to move to Russia.

There are thousands of Russians in North Carolina, but that doesn't mean it belongs to Russia.really ? thousands.........

[Neilikka]

94eV8kkFI3A


Don't play the fool, America!Lyube


From the comments on this song
This is great. It was the first Russian popsa I ever heard, back in 1993. I have loved it ever since and I am an american. Reading your posts is alot of fun, but my Russian is slow. Remember this: Not all americans think alike. I hope we can get along forever. I love the Russian community I have lived in here. Thank you Lyube. Thank you Youtube and thank you too, Kunchikov. What a wonderful favor to me. Good Luck from Maryland, USA

[beezneesman]

Like Galtieri in 1982, Saakashvili faces a domestic economic crisis and public disillusionment. In the years since the so-called Rose revolution, the cronyism and poverty that characterised the Shevardnadze era have not gone away. Allegations of corruption and favouritism towards his mother's clan, together with claims of election fraud, led to mass demonstrations against Saakashvili last November. His ruthless security forces - trained, equipped and subsidised by the west - thrashed the protesters. Lashing out at the Georgians' common enemy in South Ossetia would certainly rally them around the president, at least in the short term.

Since the 1982 Falklands conflict suddenly seem to have become de rigueur for Russians recently (for some reasons that seem obscure after 26 years) it is worth pointing out that like Galtieri in 1982 the Putin regime also needs a 'foreign adventure' to provide a diversion for the population from the creeping totalitarianism at home.

As the late, great Oscar Wilde once said 'Patriotism is the last resort of the scoundrel'

[brown-raider]

there are over 850,000 Russians in America so... that means..?:)

[Neilikka]

'Patriotism is the last resort of the scoundrel'

Great words! I 100% agree with Oskar Wilde(One of my favourite writes, by the way)

[alenika]

If Ossetian and Abhazian's don't want to live in Georgian territory anymore then they are free to move to Russia.

There are thousands of Russians in North Carolina, but that doesn't mean it belongs to Russia. The war started 15 years ago because that time Georgian government (Zviad Gamsakhurdia) announce nationalistic idea "Georgia for Georgians" and started to push people from osseian and abkhazia (while Ossetia and Abkhazia historicall are not part of Georgia they took away their autonomy) to leave their homes. Many became refugess to Russia that time, many stayed to protect their homes. Therefore, you suggest exactly what Georgia wanted from the beginning - to free Ossetia and Abkhazia from local people and make Georgia for Georgians principle to work.
I don't agree with many things in article - like about poverty still in Georgia. Life in Georgia for people became better - not becuase something developing here, but because we have good sponsorship from US.

But I agree about anything else and especially about this part "Georgians have nursed their humiliation ever since." This exactly reflects the position of Georgian politics towards both regions. And this is exactly how even Saakashvili behaved, never trying to find peaceful way to return both regions, always threatening to fight and get them back. As peaceful return would mean local people to stay there which is not the aim. What they wanted to fight and make local people to leave and return only Georgian refugees back.
This was one of main promises he given to electorate before elections.

I am sure that it's mostly fault of Georgian politics towards both regions which led to the failure. That if Saakashvili with support he had started and wished to start peaceful agreements with both regions this could work. But how someone can stay with someone who always threatens and pushes to go away?

[alpine-frolic]

If Ossetian and Abhazian's don't want to live in Georgian territory anymore then they are free to move to Russia.

There are thousands of Russians in North Carolina, but that doesn't mean it belongs to Russia.


The leader of our symphonic orchestra is the North Ossetian citizen Tugan Sokhiev, does that mean there will be a conflict beetwin the drums and violins?

[alpine-frolic]

The guy with the nice yellow little chicken used to say:

The problem with the enemy: he doesn't know HE IS the enemy.

[IrmaMos]

If Ossetian and Abhazian's don't want to live in Georgian territory anymore then they are free to move to Russia.

There are thousands of Russians in North Carolina, but that doesn't mean it belongs to Russia.

There were thousands mexicans living in the lands of Texas and California, which didnt stop America from annexation of its territories using the Army forced, against the will of mexicans.....but america very very much cared about the americans starting exploring the land in the territory of Mexica and protected them killing mexicans...want some facts ? Or u also think mexicans didnt care about this land it was the right of the America to take it away from them? Why did they fight so hard for their land then?

If you say Osetians dont want to live with the georgian goverment , it doesnt mean they need to move

Do You LOVE ur president Bush? if not , maybe, you need to move to Thailand or China?

[Neilikka]

REUTERS

By Susan Cornwell
SYMPATHY FOR RUSSIA
abstracts

In a separate hearing on Tuesday(yesterday) in the U.S. House of Representatives, several lawmakers from both parties criticized the Bush administration approach as anti-Russian and to the detriment of U.S. interests.
"Our friends in Russia are as important as our friends in Georgia. We must find a balance," said Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, a Texas Democrat.

"The Russians are right! We're wrong! Georgia started it, the Russians ended it," Rep. Dana Rohrbacher, a California Republican, told Assistant Secretary of State Dan Fried, who testified on administration policy to both the Senate panel and the House Foreign Affairs Committee.
Rohrbacher said the situation with Georgia's breakaway regions was clearly analogous to Kosovo, which was part of Serbia until it declared independence in February with U.S. support. For U.S. officials to keep saying there was no correlation "undermines our credibility," he said.

[RiverRock]

If you say Osetians dont want to live with the georgian goverment , it doesnt mean they need to move

Do You LOVE ur president Bush? if not , maybe, you need to move to Thailand or China?

They don't have to move, but they should if they don't want to be a part of Georgia. It's there choice. They were purposely placed there by Stalin to cause trouble in the first place. I don't love Bush but I do love my country so I will stay. Ossetians don't love government of Georgia or want to even be a part of Georgia.

In my opinion it is not acceptable for Russia to take a chunk of land out of the middle of Georgia, but since I don't live there I will go with whatever Alenika says about this matter.

[Neilikka]

Brandon can't you understand that neither South Ossetia nor Abhazia can be a part of Georgia or Russia? They are independant states. It doesn't matter that you don't admit it at present. Tome will pass and you will do. The matter is that they have their Independence Day, like you, it's on the 28th of August.
Russia isn't silly to include either of this states into our state. No, no! They are independant! The main point is that you and Russia have their own interests in this region. But nobody wants to take even a patch of Georgian land. We have enough of ours, Thanks God.

[dzerassa]

If Ossetian and Abhazian's don't want to live in Georgian territory anymore then they are free to move to Russia.

.



oh really? another peecekeeping initiative of usa? i have better:

if georgia wants to keep its empire having the same size of territory that it used to have in the soviet union let it unite with georgia in usa. will be one big georgia.
but abhazia and south ossetia - r abhazia and south ossetia.

[dzerassa]

They don't have to move, but they should if they don't want to be a part of Georgia. It's there choice. They were purposely placed there by Stalin to cause trouble in the first place. .

what the hell r u saying? did u smoke something? when stalin placed whom where? did u have a long talk with saakashvili before u posted this? for u to know beria started populationg abhazia with georgians, abhazians never liked it, they knew what it can lead to and they were right: georgians slowly occupied all leading positions. they made education in georgian language, ect.

as for ossetia, dear naive little boy, america wasn't discovered when ossetian ancesstors skythians and alanians were known on the vast territories of causcasus. ossetians we r the same native population of these mountains as the georgians r. just ossetians pretend on south ossetia territory and don't ask more while georgians pretend on everything as if they r the only ones ever lived there.

georgia never existed as united georgia, it was several states fighting with each other openly or hidden way. georgia as a country was saved by russia. it's not good they deny it now and accuse russia of occupying them in 19th century. they r just not grateful.

[dzerassa]

If Ossetian and Abhazian's don't want to live in Georgian territory anymore then they are free to move to Russia.

There are thousands of Russians in North Carolina, but that doesn't mean it belongs to Russia.

if i understand u correct and u mean that ossetians and abhazians r free to move to russia from this land and the territories should be left to georgia then i am suprised if not say more that u received "thanks" for this BS post from irma and vitashenka.

i not in a way upset by your post by am upset by their thanks

[dzerassa]

russian version :
http://ossetians.com/rus/news.php?newsid=831&f=3&PHPSESSID=9c05c122af9b2f8f3236a66940b62725

[dzerassa]

Звиад Гамсахурдиа. Портрет в цитатах Константин ЮРЧЕНКО

1.09.08

Непростая история межнациональных отношений на Кавказе - насчитывает не одну тысячу лет. Был мир, была и напряженность. Были войны. В частности, история конфликтов между Грузией, и некогда принадлежавшими ей национальными территориями Абхазии и Южной Осетии тянется, как минимум, с начала 20 века.

Этим двум народам хорошо запомнились ужасы гражданской войны и те этнические чистки, которым их подвергали Грузинские правительства в 1918-1920 годах.

Был конфликт и в 90-е. Сложный конфликт. Кровавый конфликт. Однако некоторые "исследователи", спекулируя на крови, решили немного так подкорректировать и затемнить историю Осетино-Абхазо-Грузинских отношений, и списать распад Грузии в начале 90-х, на привычную им "невістку". Ну, в смысле ткнуть пальцем в известную нам всем сторону и закричать - вот кто виноват!

Это, в общем-то, и побудило меня опубликовать избранные цитаты о Звиаде Гамсахурдиа, первом президенте независимой Грузии. А у читателя будет возможность, на досуге объективно поразмыслить, каковы были причины распада Грузии в начале 90-х. И нельзя ли извлечь из той ситуации каких-либо уроков истории и для Украины?

"...Надо установить статус гражданина Грузии, который положит конец бесконтрольной иммиграции и демографической экспансии чужой нации в Грузии", - Звиад Гамсахурдиа

Из выступления 3. Гамсахурдия на митинге в селе Ахалсопели Кварельского района (Газета "Известия", № 313,1990 г.) "Кахетия всегда была демографически самым чистым регионом, где грузинский элемент всегда преобладал, всегда властвовал. Сейчас там так устроили дело, что мы в раздумье, как спасти Кахетию? Тут татарство поднимает голову и тягается с Кахетией, там - лекство, там - армянство, а там еще осетинство, и они вот-вот проглотят Кахетию. Сила на нашей стороне, грузинская нация с нами, и мы расправимся со всеми предателями, всех призовем к надлежащему порядку и всех этих врагов, приютившихся тут злых негрузин, выгоним из Грузии".

Из интервью 3. Гамсахурдиа газете "Советская Россия" 20 IX 1990 г. "Продажное правительство, продажные функционеры, которые продали нашу страну, наш народ, прямо кусками продали грузинскую землю негрузинскому населению. Негрузинское население размножается катастрофическими темпами"

16 марта 1991 года 3. Гамсахурдиа утверждал: "Осетины-прямые агенты Кремля и террористы, у осетин нет права на эту землю. Они - новые здесь люди".

В интервью лондонской газете "Таймс" 6 декабря 1990 года Гамсахурдиа сказал: "армяне и азербайджанцы - эти составляющие вместе 20 процентов населения Грузии, - это угроза грузинской нации. Большинство из них - враги".

Из интервью 3. Гамсахурдиа итальянской газете "Ла Стампа", перепечатанной /газетой "Союз" в феврале 1990 г.

"Осетины представляют собой ничтожное меньшинство".

"Моя позиция проста: коренное население должно преобладать над другими народностями".

"Мегаполис-Экспресс" в № 2 за 1992 год опубликовала статью Бориса Давыдова под заголовком: "Домашняя работа Звиада Гамсахуриа", где мнение скептиков выразила немецкая газета "Зю Дойче Цайтунг": "То, что происходит в Грузии, это скорее борьба одного картеля с другим за сферы влияния, но не за демократию". На Западе совсем не уверены в том, что оппозиция будет проводить иную, нежели Гамсахурдиа, политику в отношении населяющих Грузию национальных меньшинств. Дискриминация негрузин, происходящая в Грузии, отрицательно влияет на другие бывшие советские республики, где коренная нация составляет лишь две трети населения, полагают эксперты".

"Независимая газета" № 34, декабрь 1991 г.: Гамсахурдиа в своем выступлении по грузинскому телевидению 17. ХП 1991 обвинил оппозицию в клевете и сотрудничестве с Москвой. Гамсахурдиа также "разъясняет" проблему Южной Осетии: "Руководство бывшей империи целенаправленно пытается обострить ситуацию в Грузии. Советские войска всячески помогают экстремистам, и ведется ужасная война против грузинского народа".

Журнал "Совет аналиса" № 3, 1992 г., США: "Звиадизм в Грузии привел к грузино-осетинской войне в 1989-1992 годах. Жестокие избиения, расстрелы и варварские пытки паяльной лампой стали обычными методами истребления осетин в Южной Осетии и во всех внутренних районах Грузии; пыток, с которыми не сравнимы даже жестокости инквизиции и немецких фашистов".

"…Гамсахурдиа сегодня - это человек, который борется за чистоту "грузинской расы", не всегда задумываясь о самочувствии людей других национальностей, исторически проживающих в Грузии. Моих соплеменников - аварцев - в Грузии всего около пяти тысяч человек. Их предки были приглашены еще грузинским царем Ираклием Вторым для защиты границ. Часть из них уже уехала из своих сел, а оставшиеся вынуждены выдерживать немалые испытания, блокады и укоры. Топить "чужих", чтобы спасти "своих" в этой ситуации означает наследовать вражду и недоверие между соседями. В конечном итоге подобные действия могут обернуться трагедией против собственного народа". (Рамазан Абдуллатипов, Председатель Совета Национальностей Верховного Совета РСФСР, "Столичная", 1990, 1 декабря).

10 ноября 1991 года отвечая на вопросы журналистов и телезрителей в прямом эфире "Москва - Тбилиси", Гамсахурдия - утверждает: "Цхинвальский регион всегда назывался Внутренней Картли до 1922года. В 1922 г был большевиками изобретен новый термин - Южная Осетия. Южная Осетия - это не географический термин, изобретенный большевиками. Никакой Южной Осетии нет и никогда она не существовала. Такого географического термина нет в природе". ("Вечерней Тбилиси",15 ноября 1991 год.)

Он также ультимативно требует от Председателя Верховного Совета говорить СО ССР вместо Северная Осетия, а так же прекращения признания незаконной "Юго - Осетинской АО и ее обкома". Воображение не покидает президента, когда речь заходит о беженцах - осетинах, преследуемых грузинскими "демократами". "Это эмигранты, а не беженцы" - заявляет он главному редактору программы "Содружество" А. Скрябину. "ХУРХАТАН" №2

1992 г.

У меня к читателю вопрос: а может ли устоять в целости страна, Президент которой, открыто проповедует такие взгляды? Был ли у Грузии хоть шанс, остаться целостной в начале 90-х? Нужно ли вмешательство другого государства, что бы развалить страну в такой момент?

Думаю каждый ответит для себя сам. И выводы каждого, будут на его совести. А я, лишь задал вопрос.

Националистический лозунг времен Гамсахурдия «Грузия для грузин», по общему признанию, действительно был чрезвычайно популярен в широких массах, что, вероятно, объясняло тот факт, что по этническому признаку стали делиться не только учебно-научные заведения, но и производственные, рабочие коллективы, а в массовых митингах и голодовках принимало участие большое число женщин и подростков, т.е. в эскалации противостояния были активно задействованы и собственно этнические группы.

А в современной Грузии, уважаемый читатель, память Звиада Гамсахурдиа увековечена указом президента Грузии Саакашвили и его именем названа Набережная Тбилиси, а участники антиосетинских погромов приравнены парламентом Грузии к героям - реабилитантам. Вот такая вот история.

Нам это ни о чем не должно напоминать?



Константин ЮРЧЕНКО

[alenika]

In my opinion it is not acceptable for Russia to take a chunk of land out of the middle of Georgia, but since I don't live there I will go with whatever Alenika says about this matter.Ossetians were not placed there by Stalin, it's their earth. And the earth was added to Georgia, not Ossetians moved there. But I think that state integrity is important and it would be better for both regions to stay inside of Georgia. But Georgia made all possible mistakes. It's not the correct way to fight to keep anyone with themselves. And I witnessed that the policy towards both regions was agressive all the time while Saakashvili already had any means to behave normally, as he had support of the world. He just had to accept mistakes made 15 years ago by georgian government and this shouldn't have been humiating for him even as Zviad's government has no support in country for years.

I really wonder why politics towards both places was this agressive... and those words from articles "Georgians have nursed their humiliation ever since." are exactly to the point.

[dzerassa]

eu gives georgia 15 mln euros for restoration of ifrastucture but not even 1 euro to south ossetia. isn't it clear double standards

[RiverRock]

[QUOTE]It's there choice. They were purposely placed there by Stalin to cause trouble in the first place. [/QUOTE}

Oops, Wrong conflict.:l_sparrow: I was wrong on this statement.

[dzerassa]

[QUOTE]It's there choice. They were purposely placed there by Stalin to cause trouble in the first place. [/QUOTE}

Oops, Wrong conflict.:l_sparrow: I was wrong on this statement.

ok brandon, just don't say it to ossetians if u ever meet some. u know those wild mountaneers :)

[RiverRock]

Dzerassa: oh really? another peecekeeping initiative of usa? i have better:

if georgia wants to keep its empire having the same size of territory that it used to have in the soviet union let it unite with georgia in usa. will be one big georgia.
but abhazia and south ossetia - r abhazia and south ossetia.

Sounds like a good plan to me. That would be great. I might actually want to live there if that happened. The state of Georgia is twice the size of the country Georgia so it would definitely get more land.

I don't think Russian government would approve though. :(

[alenika]

I don't think Russian government would approve though. :( Georgian government wouldn't approve too :-) One thing to get support from another country, another thing - to become part of another country. And why to become part of another country if we get support anyway?

[dzerassa]

The leader of our symphonic orchestra is the North Ossetian citizen Tugan Sokhiev, does that mean there will be a conflict beetwin the drums and violins?

i love everything french: cinema, music, perfumes, language :)
just don't like sarkozy, chirac was better more independent in his political actions

[alpine-frolic]

i love everything french: cinema, music, perfumes, language :)
just don't like sarkozy, chirac was better more independent in his political actions
We don't have only good things... I think a bit like you about Chirac and Zarkossi, but don't remember if we had really a valuable president since ww2. No one is my heroe.
Sorry to don't compliment you about your country, my knowledge is too poor there...

[kentuckydan]

There were thousands mexicans living in the lands of Texas and California, which didnt stop America from annexation of its territories using the Army forced, against the will of mexicans.....but america very very much cared about the americans starting exploring the land in the territory of Mexica and protected them killing mexicans...want some facts ? Or u also think mexicans didnt care about this land it was the right of the America to take it away from them? Why did they fight so hard for their land then?

If you say Osetians dont want to live with the georgian goverment , it doesnt mean they need to move

Do You LOVE ur president Bush? if not , maybe, you need to move to Thailand or China?

Oh I just love it when someone brings up the Southwest and Mexico's claim(?) to that territory. Like how exactly did they get that claim??? Isn't it rather like a mugger complaining that someone bigger and meaner took a purse he had stolen away from him?

Point of information in and around 1848 conflict between the US and Mexico was not the only one in that region,

The Dineh, the Uh ORIGINAL inhabitants of a good part of that region had kicked the Mexican's little posteriors SOUTH of the Rio Grande.

Now it is true they were not so successful with the Anglos when THEY moved in, but PLEASE I feel no quilt about Mexico losing that territiory and I think the Aztlan meme is a sick joke

The only reason the Aztecs and then the Spanish and later the Mexicans ventured North was for Slaves and Scalps (there was a bounty on Indian scalps)

[Neilikka]

Sarkozy is not that bad. He has placed Europe at the center of world policy. He has made several steps towards Russia's position with this plan, turning Europe into a real mediator between Russia and the United States.

[dzerassa]

Sarkozy is not that bad. He has placed Europe at the center of world policy. He has made several steps towards Russia's position with this plan, turning Europe into a real mediator between Russia and the United States.

what i meant is that chirac was more independent in his political actions, sarkozy became like uk following all american plans.

as for mediator i agree, just when he signs a document in moscow, he should sign the same version in tbilisi. not that in moscow he is clearly said the eu observers will be in buffer zone AROUND south ossetia and abhazia, and in tbilisi he says they will be IN them.

and i also think that chirac wouldn't allow saakashvili to clap his shoulder like saakashvili did to sarkozy as if sarkozy is a little boy and saakshvili is encouraging him.

[brown-raider]

what i meant is that chirac was more independent in his political actions, sarkozy became like uk following all american plans.

as for mediator i agree, just when he signs a document in moscow, he should sign the same version in tbilisi. not that in moscow he is clearly said the eu observers will be in buffer zone AROUND south ossetia and abhazia, and in tbilisi he says they will be IN them.

and i also think that chirac wouldn't allow saakashvili to clap his shoulder like saakashvili did to sarkozy as if sarkozy is a little boy and saakshvili is encouraging him.wow you sure give America alot of credit and clout... France and the U.k. follow America's plans..:lol:

[dzerassa]

wow you sure give America alot of credit

i am generous :)

[Lucker]

Reindeer
Even if your belief was true Historically , you have lost depth of friendship as a result of the madness of Iraq .
And whether you bomb Iran or you stand by and let Israel repeat its Syrian success for both of you , I doubt whether you will get any tangible help from the EU or Team GB .
If you had any brains or guts you would have solved the Iran problem before getting into this awful lose/lose Iraq scenario .
If you had flattened every military installation in 2003 you would have frightened North Korea properly ( they are taking the piss at the moment ), scared Iraq and kept Russia quiet who now are deeply involved with Iran .
The mistake , as ever , is letting the US military think it can think .

[beezneesman]

Reindeer
Even if your belief was true Historically , you have lost depth of friendship as a result of the madness of Iraq .
And whether you bomb Iran or you stand by and let Israel repeat its Syrian success for both of you , I doubt whether you will get any tangible help from the EU or Team GB .
If you had any brains or guts you would have solved the Iran problem before getting into this awful lose/lose Iraq scenario .
If you had flattened every military installation in 2003 you would have frightened North Korea properly ( they are taking the piss at the moment ), scared Iraq and kept Russia quiet who now are deeply involved with Iran .
The mistake , as ever , is letting the US military think it can think .

Actually Ramon I think the blame for the current mess lies with the American political leadership rather than their military.

I have been impressed by the way the American military have adapted to the different styles of warfare they have had to take on since 911. Rightly or wrongly they were seen as a 'one trick' (i.e. highly mechanized/high intensity warfare) pony prior to 911 but one think I think they do well it is to learn lessons and see that those lessons are thoroughly disseminated throughout the ranks.

Although it pains me to say it I don't think the same can be said of the British Army since 911 (especially in relation to Iraq). It is primarily down to political backing and the balance between resourcing and tasking. The US military have full political backing and are well resourced for their tasks - the British military have neither. The results of this are that, in relation to the post invasion situation in Iraq in particular, that the UK started well and are finishing badly while the US started badly but seems to be finishing rather well.

[brown-raider]

Reindeer
Even if your belief was true Historically , you have lost depth of friendship as a result of the madness of Iraq .
And whether you bomb Iran or you stand by and let Israel repeat its Syrian success for both of you , I doubt whether you will get any tangible help from the EU or Team GB .
If you had any brains or guts you would have solved the Iran problem before getting into this awful lose/lose Iraq scenario .
If you had flattened every military installation in 2003 you would have frightened North Korea properly ( they are taking the piss at the moment ), scared Iraq and kept Russia quiet who now are deeply involved with Iran .
The mistake , as ever , is letting the US military think it can think .Peacock have you been hanging out with the rag heads the last 12 days you have come back more brainwashed than before.... you have come back beleiving the madness the chimp Abinadikhead has been spewing.. the terrible towels will run they have a history of being worthless fighters

[zoroooo]

Its amazing how you Americans see solutions.

War and your wars.Irak got as result that alquada got there in.You and us we fight in AFganistan good....Now we see pakistan involled normal...once started no way back.

Now sweet Palin stated that if needed " we could have a war with russia to defend Georgia.
Iran hmmm lets think about it ...

One problem is not finnished and one other problem should be solved by the sound of boots..

At the end you gonna drag the western world in endless wars and us and our kids will only work to pay thoose expenses.


zoroooo

[brown-raider]

Its amazing how you Americans see solutions.

War and your wars.Irak got as result that alquada got there in.You and us we fight in AFganistan good....Now we see pakistan involled normal...once started no way back.

Now sweet Palin stated that if needed " we could have a war with russia to defend Georgia.
Iran hmmm lets think about it ...

One problem is not finnished and one other problem should be solved by the sound of boots..

At the end you gonna drag the western world in endless wars and us and our kids will only work to pay thoose expenses.


zoroooocongrats Luvuun, I didn't know you had kids!!! well surprise surprise the world is not made up of nice fookin people, and if some body punches you in the nose, you kick em in the nutts... you can run around scared of war or se it for what it is, necessary to deal with fukheads.... I have 2 sons one has already been in the Marine corps. and the other will be going in about 5 years from now, I didn't raise my boys to be cowards . I have 2 cousins in Iraqu now because they fookin wanted to go both are brothers and on their 2nd tour of combat... contrary to what you might think this is not a nation of cowards, are we not involved in some sh*t somewhere all the time? fook it that's the way it goes if there is a war..

[zoroooo]

congrats Luvuun, I didn't know you had kids!!! well surprise surprise the world is not made up of nice fookin people, and if some body punches you in the nose, you kick em in the nutts... you can run around scared of war or se it for what it is, necessary to deal with fukheads.... I have 2 sons one has already been in the Marine corps. and the other will be going in about 5 years from now, I didn't raise my boys to be cowards . I have 2 cousins in Iraqu now because they fookin wanted to go both are brothers and on their 2nd tour of combat... contrary to what you might think this is not a nation of cowards, are we not involved in some sh*t somewhere all the time? fook it that's the way it goes if there is a war..

My dear friend,

If you read my post and keep your temper cool than you will see its not about been a coward..its about spread war and telling us the world will be safer..Admit when you hear Palin you would like that MC Caine doesnt die or get ill in his possible presidency.

When she talks I reminds me the movie of charlie chaplin wich was a persiflage the Hitler. I dont compare her to hitler ... a persiflage.

One advice to America freeze her in , in Alaska.I get chicken skin listening to her.


Friendly


lavuun

[brown-raider]

My dear friend,

If you read my post and keep your temper cool than you will see its not about been a coward..its about spread war and telling us the world will be safer..Admit when you hear Palin you would like that MC Caine doesnt die or get ill in his possible presidency.

When she talks I reminds me the movie of charlie chaplin wich was a persiflage the Hitler. I dont compare her to hitler ... a persiflage.

One advice to America freeze her in , in Alaska.I get chicken skin listening to her.


Friendly


lavuunI think you belittle her just because she is a woman... not that she would be President, but there have been other women have done a good job... Thatcher.. Golda Mayer they had more balls than lot of the peacenicks who believe everyone can play nice... dreamers... and you like bam bam just because he's black right, maybe you would like affirmative action to decide our presidency, what fookin qualifications does he have... he is a media created leader, not a real or affective leader, all he has done is spit some game at a bunch of suckers who have swallowed his bull crap, when his words are no longer able to be scripted and he is in a debate, he will show his true colors.... wars are at times necessary no matter how much you want all to play fair and nice, if wars come they must be met head on, would you not defend yourself if someone spit on you? :yo:

[beezneesman]

I think you belittle her just because she is a woman... not that she would be President, but there have been other women have done a good job... Thatcher.. Golda Mayer they had more balls than lot of the peacenicks who believe everyone can play nice

How exactly did Thatcher do a good job? Most of the domestic problems the UK has today have their roots in the Thatcher era?

Didn't Golda Meir's c0ck-ups lead directly to Israel being caught with its pants down during the Yom Kippur War?

[zoroooo]

I think you belittle her just because she is a woman... not that she would be President, but there have been other women have done a good job... Thatcher.. Golda Mayer they had more balls than lot of the peacenicks who believe everyone can play nice... dreamers... and you like bam bam just because he's black right, maybe you would like affirmative action to decide our presidency, what fookin qualifications does he have... he is a media created leader, not a real or affective leader, all he has done is spit some game at a bunch of suckers who have swallowed his bull crap, when his words are no longer able to be scripted and he is in a debate, he will show his true colors.... wars are at times necessary no matter how much you want all to play fair and nice, if wars come they must be met head on, would you not defend yourself if someone spit on you? :yo:

Dear brown obvious balls and balls are to content of you thinking...Nothing substantial to write here now.To continiu to post on your posts is just useless or is instigating a quarrel.
I gave you my opinion so that's it.

friendly


lavuun

[dzerassa]

sorry this articlae is in russian but it was published in a french newspaper. this is an interview with former minister od defence of georgia fired by saakashvili and who found shelter in france now



Документ (Le Point)
Грузинский президент готовил свое нападение с 2005 года
Источник: Le Point


По словам бывшего министра обороны Грузии, получившего политическое убежище во Франции, грузинский президент Михаил Саакашвили с 2005 года вынашивал военные планы возвращения под свой контроль двух сепаратистских провинций, Абхазии и Южной Осетии

Грузинский президент Михаил Саакашвили с 2005 года вынашивал военные планы возвращения под свой контроль двух сепаратистских провинций, Абхазии и Южной Осетии, заявил в интервью Reuters бывший министр обороны Грузии, сегодня получивший политическое убежище во Франции.

Ираклий Окруашвили, с 2004 по 2006 год министр обороны, теперь получивший статус политического беженца во Франции, обвиняет своего бывшего шефа в том, что тот неумело провел эту военную операцию, тем самым, по его мнению, спровоцировав российский ответ. Ответственность за этот провал он возлагает на Вашингтон.

"Абхазия была нашим стратегическим приоритетом, но мы в 2005 году разрабатывали военные проекты возвращения под свой контроль и Абхазии, и Южной Осетии", – заявил он в эксклюзивном интервью Reuters.

Михаил Саакашвили уверяет, что это Россия инициировала конфликт, приведший к оккупации части его страны российской армией и международному дипломатическому кризису.

Россия согласилась вывести войска из Грузии, но не из Абхазии и Южной Осетии, которые провозгласили свою независимость, признанную Москвой.

Ираклий Окруашвили, родившийся в Южной Осетии, критикует инициативу Саакашвили, которую считает поспешной, не подкрепленной необходимой дипломатической поддержкой и нереалистичной в военном плане.

По его словам, проекты, подготовленные в 2005 году, предполагали захват южноосетинской столицы Цхинвали, Рокского тоннеля – главного пути сообщения между Россией и Южной Осетией, и города Джава.

"Единственной целью нападения Саакашвили был захват Цхинвали, потому что он думал, что Соединенные Штаты по дипломатическим каналам помешают российскому ответу", – добавляет он.

"Когда же американская реакция оказалась ничтожной, Саакашвили перебросил войска в направлении Рокского тоннеля, и в результате русские его опередили", – заключает Окруашвили.

"Дни Саакашвили сочтены"

Этот провал на самом деле был неизбежен, считает бывший министр обороны. "После 2006 года у нас не было ни малейшего шанса добиться успеха военными средствами. Русские передислоцировали и усовершенствовали военную инфраструктуру на Северном Кавказе, в Абхазии и Южной Осетии – разумеется, они сделали это из-за нас".

По мнению Окруашвили, грузинскому президенту следовало бы защищать грузинские города, но вместо этого он "позволил прийти русским, чтобы избежать критики и предстать скорее в роли жертвы".

По словам Окруашвили, американский президент предостерегал грузинскую власть от попыток военной авантюры.

"Когда в мае 2005 года мы встречались с президентом Бушем, он ясно нам сказал: "Не пускайтесь в военную конфронтацию, мы не сможем оказать вам военную поддержку".

Осужденный и заочно приговоренный в Грузии в мае к 11 годам тюремного заключения за вымогательство акций, 34-летний Ираклий Окруашвили, прибыв во Францию в январе, в апреле получил статус политического беженца. Французское правосудие на прошлой неделе ответило отказом на запрос Тбилиси о его экстрадиции.

Его арест в сентябре 2007 года привел к беспорядкам, в ноябре – к введению чрезвычайного положения, а затем к досрочным выборам, на которых был переизбран Саакашвили. Окруашвили отрицает предъявленные ему обвинения, которые, по его словам, сфабрикованы. Он считает, что Вашингтон совершил ошибку, поддерживая его бывшего шефа после 2007 года.

"Нет никакого противовеса власти. Созданные им институты "заточены" под него. Из-за отсутствия критики со стороны Соединенных Штатов он смог зайти слишком далеко", – говорит он.

"Саакашвили должен дать отчет и уйти в отставку. Если он уйдет, его не надо привлекать к ответственности. Но, если он этого не сделает, это приведет к суду над ним", – предвидит Окруашвили.

Он надеется на мобилизацию в стране 7 ноября, в день годовщины демонстраций 2007 года. "Я вернусь через год, даже рискуя попасть в тюрьму. Дни Саакашвили сочтены".

Французская версия – Тьерри Левек

[kentuckydan]

Now sweet Palin stated that if needed " we could have a war with russia to defend Georgia.


zoroooo

No she what she said that if Georgia were a NATO ally then if it were attacked we would have to come to it's aid.

That was a simple statement on the DUTIES of a NATO Ally.

Is it your contention that NATO Treaty Obligations should be ignored?

Here are the List of current NATO members, in your opinion, which ones are expendable?
Belgium
Bulgaria
Canada
Czech Rep
Denmark
Estonia
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Turkey
United Kingdom
United States

[dzerassa]

No she what she said that if Georgia were a NATO ally then if it were attacked we would have to come to it's aid.

That was a simple statement on the DUTIES of a NATO Ally.

Is it your contention that NATO Treaty Obligations should be ignored?

Here are the List of current NATO members, in your opinion, which ones are expendable?
Belgium
Bulgaria
Canada
Czech Rep
Denmark
Estonia
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Turkey
United Kingdom
United States


nato could do it and have bigger problems than it has in iraq and afganistan now

[kentuckydan]

nato could do it and have bigger problems than it has in iraq and afganistan now

Oh WOW now that is what I call a peace loving responce which Nation do you want Putin to sink his claws into next?


Bulgaria
Czech Rep
Denmark
Estonia
Czech Rep
Denmark
Estonia
Hungary
Latvia
Lithuania
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia

or
Slovenia


PS Russia has had some severe diplomatic and economic consequences
as a result of IT'S recent activities

Care to go back to 1998 and 1999?

Cause you may get to whether you want to or not.

[dzerassa]

dan? sorry but what is your message i don't understand. russia did what considered it had to do. it is russian borders. do u want to fight with russia 'cause of actions of one adediquate leader? or u first prefer to finish your peacekeeping operations in afganistans and iraq.

[dzerassa]

Oh WOW now that is what I call a peace loving responce which Nation do you want Putin to sink his claws into next?


.

don't break your claw when u sink it into iran.

is there any other place in the world having oil and not being controlled by usa? we need to expect some development there as well with direct or indirect involvment of the wolrd's sherriff

[Sveta's Hero]

Operations in Afghanistan and Iraq were never touted as peacekeeping.

[dzerassa]

Operations in Afghanistan and Iraq were never touted as peacekeeping.

sorry paul, ok anti-terroristic

[dzerassa]

what i mean is that what is happening between russia and its neigbours - it is just on russia's borders. is usa ready to come close to our borders and fight with russia? r u serious? i would first think our leaders got crazy if they did it towards usa.

[kentuckydan]

don't break your claw when u sink it into iran.

is there any other place in the world having oil and not being controlled by usa? we need to expect some development there as well with direct or indirect involvment of the wolrd's sherriff

You really think the US is the ONLY Nation on the face of the earth at risk if Islamic Jihadists get a nuclear option?

How fast they forget it has only been 4 years

[dzerassa]

You really think the US is the ONLY Nation on the face of the earth at risk if Islamic Jihadists get a nuclear option?

How fast they forget it has only been 4 years

do u mean iran or pakistan?

[kentuckydan]

do u mean iran or pakistan?

Right now only Iran is under a Theocracy with a State Supported organisation for Terrorism.

If Pakistan falls to the Fundamentalists you are correct the danger doubles.

[dzerassa]

Right now only Iran is under a Theocracy with a State Supported organisation for Terrorism.

If Pakistan falls to the Fundamentalists you are correct the danger doubles.

right now iran is a souverign state, member of un and has right to have not less rights than usa, russia, etc for having any weapons. the type of political system there has nothing to do with this. it is not us to decide what political system iran should have, it is just citizens of this country.
as for state supported organization for errorism, it is just one more propaganda thing just like iraq.

pakistan is much more unstable

[kentuckydan]

don't break your claw when u sink it into iran.

is there any other place in the world having oil and not being controlled by usa? we need to expect some development there as well with direct or indirect involvment of the wolrd's sherriff



Here is a list of Oil Production (most recent) by country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_pro-energy-oil-production)


Please list for us the Nations the US "controls"???????

[kentuckydan]

right now iran is a souverign state, member of un and has right to have not less rights than usa, russia, etc for having any weapons. the type of political system there has nothing to do with this. it is not us to decide what political system iran should have, it is just citizens of this country.
as for state supported organization for errorism, it is just one more propaganda thing just like iraq.

pakistan is much more unstable

Well they do keep stating that they wish to wipe another UN member off the face of the earth, but I supose the world will do what it usually does talk a bunch of hot air until the genocide is a fait acompli,

As for state supported terrorism? Well they DID have graduation ceremonies for future Sha'hid martyr terrorist squads.

But then you will just have to wait til the bombs start going off, let me remind you that they don't really like Russia either, but they do find you useful

How soon they forget it has only been 4 years

[kentuckydan]

Now sweet Palin stated that if needed " we could have a war with russia to defend Georgia.


zoroooo

Little bit of futher information on that subject

Palin said that Georgia should be a member of NATO
and when asked did say that if a NATO member is attacked
then of course all other NATO members were bound by Treaty
to come to their aid

Guess what?

Obama SAID THE EXACT SAME THING!

Funny that there were no cries of outrage at his statement

[dzerassa]

let me remind you that they don't really like Russia either, but they do find you useful



i don't think there r countries "liking each other", they just find each other useful at certain periods, that's how the world is and has been. churchil said this "britain doesn't have allies, britain has its interests"?

i repeat just that pakistan is much more unstable, israel had several wars with its neighbours and i am not sure they r not close to having this weapons.

as for shahids - yes u r right but "civilized" countries have their secret services for certain types of actions, at least i think so, and those services r much more hidden than those u mentioned in iran. besides, for iran i think a lot is done by delibarate propaganda just like it was for iraq. don't forget to inform the world when americans find what they were looking for there

[kentuckydan]

israel had several wars with its neighbours and i am not sure they r not close to having this weapons.


Oh they have had them for sometime, the difference is they have never threatened to wipe anyone off the face of the earth.

[dzerassa]

Oh they have had them for sometime, the difference is they have never threatened to wipe anyone off the face of the earth.

so the action against the words

[kentuckydan]

so the action against the words

Israel has them has never used them, nor ever threatened to wipe out
any other nation.

Iran wants them and has said it wishes to wipe Israel off the face of the
earth.

You will probably just sputter until a holocaust is a reality.

But Israel will not go into the Night quietly, it will retaliate, and it now
has a second strike capabilty.

[beezneesman]

Oh they have had them for sometime, the difference is they have never threatened to wipe anyone off the face of the earth.

But they do bear the full responsibility for kicking off this particular regional arms race. It seems that the USA is only against the covert development of nuclear weapons programmes when it suits them.

It does seem strange to me that the USA put more effort into trying to stop the UK's nuclear weapons programme than it did against that of Pakistan!!!!

[dzerassa]

Israel has them has never used them, nor ever threatened to wipe out
any other nation.

Iran wants them and has said it wishes to wipe Israel off the face of the
earth.

You will probably just sputter until a holocaust is a reality.

But Israel will not go into the Night quietly, it will retaliate, and it now
has a second strike capabilty.

i know just one war where iran participated: iran-iraq
i know several wars where israel participated

what iran threatens is nothing comparing to what usa did in iraq for example. besides, i think those threats don't appera from nothing, they r fed with a hostile policy towards their country. besides, i am quite sure if iran and israel were given chance to sit and agree on certian things they would do it. less of all these countries need war between them.

[alenika]

Little bit of futher information on that subject

Palin said that Georgia should be a member of NATO
and when asked did say that if a NATO member is attacked
then of course all other NATO members were bound by Treaty
to come to their aid

Guess what?

Obama SAID THE EXACT SAME THING!

Funny that there were no cries of outrage at his statement Does it mean that NATO member countries will be able to show any agression towards other countries not NATO members, or they'll be able to bomb own countries like Georgia did and now none will be able to stop them? Because as I can see the world and NATO supports abombing Tskhinvali. Is this world where we all are going to live from now on?

[kentuckydan]

[QUOTE=dzerassa;7789]i know just one war where iran participated: iran-iraq
i know several wars where israel participated
QUOTE]

Well gee, when you are surrounded by polities whose major goal in life is to drive you intot the sea and/or exterminate you, there tends to be conflict

The only reason that there have been SEVERAL wars is because so far Israel has been able to SURVIVE each one

Sorry to dissapoint you

[kentuckydan]

i i am quite sure if iran and israel were given chance to sit and agree on certian things they would do it.

Now THAT is a sick joke


Muhammad: "The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'O Muslim, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"43

FckLO8HcNyo

Hussein Moussawi, a former leader of Hezbollah was once asked what could be offered that would result in Peace in the MidEast,

His reply was

"We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.”

[dzerassa]

[QUOTE=dzerassa;7789]i know just one war where iran participated: iran-iraq
i know several wars where israel participated
QUOTE]

Well gee, when you are surrounded by polities whose major goal in life is to drive you intot the sea and/or exterminate you, there tends to be conflict

The only reason that there have been SEVERAL wars is because so far Israel has been able to SURVIVE each one

Sorry to dissapoint you

u didn't disappoint me dan

my opinion is that iran as a souverign country can have weapons that is not forbidden for other countries. that's it.

[Lucker]

She is provoking you Mr Smutty
Nobody could be that naive .
Or perhaps her Dad makes a fortune out of the systems Russia supplies to the Iran and Syrian arsenals .

[kentuckydan]

[QUOTE=kentuckydan;7816]

u didn't disappoint me dan

my opinion is that iran as a souverign country can have weapons that is not forbidden for other countries. that's it.

and you don't dissapoint me, if the result of what you suggest is the extermination of a major portion of the Israeli population that will be "it" too.

You do not seem to be concerned at all about that eventuality, perhaps Ramon is correct

[dzerassa]

[QUOTE=dzerassa;7832]

and you don't dissapoint me, if the result of what you suggest is the extermination of a major portion of the Israeli population that will be "it" too.

You do not seem to be concerned at all about that eventuality, perhaps Ramon is correct

dan, i have friends from israel and if u think i wish them bad u r wrong and i never said anything like that. don't interprete my words please.

[Hoopy]

u didn't disappoint me dan

my opinion is that iran as a souverign country can have weapons that is not forbidden for other countries. that's it.And my opinion is that Georgia as a sovereign country should not have Russian troops on it's soil.

[dzerassa]

And my opinion is that Georgia as a sovereign country should not have Russian troops on it's soil.

it won't. as per agreement medvedev-srkozy they will be replaced by eu observers. russia is happy to please u :)

[Lucker]

it won't. as per agreement medvedev-srkozy they will be replaced by eu observers. russia is happy to please u :)

No , my dear young lady
Russia has had the smile wiped off its face .
Where is the rhetoric now ?
Why is Medvedev still stuck up in the Monastery belfry ?
These are the questions you should ponder as you die choking on the vision of Ramon entering Red Square to take the keys of the city from Vlad the Bad .

[dzerassa]

These are the questions you should ponder as you die choking on the vision of Ramon entering Red Square to take the keys of the city from Vlad the Bad .

not sure about "vlad the bad" but keys of Vladi which is Vladikavkaz r in a secure place: they r digged under the mountain kazbek. find them and vladi is yours

[Lucker]

I am a great fan of the kavkazar site
Over time is has become clear that its information is tip top and invariably turns out to be true .
However , it is one of a dozen I look at regularly and may be 50 when you take links into account .

[kentuckydan]

[QUOTE=kentuckydan;8517]

dan, i have friends from israel and if u think i wish them bad u r wrong and i never said anything like that. don't interprete my words please.

Maybe I misundertood this

"my opinion is that iran as a souverign country can have weapons that is not forbidden for other countries. that's it."

Now a person either

#1 Thinks that Iran should be able to acquire nuclear weapons

or
#2 Thinks Iran should NOT be able to acquire nuclear weapons.

Somehow I get the impression, your position is #1

Now since the Theocratic (remember this word) Regime of Iran has made no secret that it
desires to wipe the State of Israel off the face of the earth

anyone IMO who thinks Iran should have those weapons believes that no one should prevent Iran from acquiring the means to fulfill it's wishes

Now this desire is not limited to Iran or just a few fringe fanatics, it is instead a basic tennet of Islamic Theology (rember the term Theocratic?) preached from minarets by some of the most eminent Muslim Clerics.

As a matter of fact one Imam stated that he was grateful for the creation of Israel, because it concentrated a large amount of Jews in one place, which would make their extermination more easier than if they were spread around the world.

Hitler and the Nazis made no secret of their Final Solution, the world did not listen then.

It does not appear to be listening now.

Now you may not wish your friends "bad" but you do not seem to think it wrong for those who wish to destroy them, have the means to do so.

[dzerassa]

[QUOTE=dzerassa;8518]

Now since the Theocratic (remember this word) Regime of Iran has made no secret that it
desires to wipe the State of Israel off the face of the earth

.

my opinion is that when one country has certain type of weapons it gives her privilede including to use it against another country. if opposing country has the same type of weapons it gives balance.

i don't think iran can use nuclear weapons against israel, arnt' they too close to each other?

all those speeches that u say r just bla bla of certian politicians plus publicity made by mass media

[alenika]

[QUOTE=dzerassa;8518]#1 Thinks that Iran should be able to acquire nuclear weapons
or
#2 Thinks Iran should NOT be able to acquire nuclear weapons. US having nuclear weapon, or Russia having nuclear weapon, or idea of Iran having nuclear weapon scare me equally strong. Just US and Russia already have this weapon which is much more scary than any ideas.

[dzerassa]

[QUOTE=kentuckydan;8554] US having nuclear weapon, or Russia having nuclear weapon, or idea of Iran having nuclear weapon scare me equally strong. Just US and Russia already have this weapon which is much more scary than any ideas.

totally agree

[RiverRock]

The odds of Russia or USA using nuclear bombs against each other is very low. After all we have been through and them not being used. It is a miracle.

[Sveta's Hero]

Back in 1984 or 85, there was a movie, "The Day After", I believe was the title. It was a ficticious movie about a nuclear war between the USSR and the USA. It showed how bad the fall-out, radiation, and the millions upon millions of deaths there would be in such a war. I was only about 13 at the time, but it scared the living daylights out of me. I remember the buzz surrounding this movie and it scared alot of other people too. I heard it was even shown in Russia, although I'm not sure. Maybe some members around my age or older remember this movie?

[beezneesman]

Back in 1984 or 85, there was a movie, "The Day After", I believe was the title. It was a ficticious movie about a nuclear war between the USSR and the USA. It showed how bad the fall-out, radiation, and the millions upon millions of deaths there would be in such a war. I was only about 13 at the time, but it scared the living daylights out of me. I remember the buzz surrounding this movie and it scared alot of other people too. I heard it was even shown in Russia, although I'm not sure. Maybe some members around my age or older remember this movie?

I remember seeing that. There was a similar movie called 'Threads' here in the UK at around the same time. Both of them considerably under-estimated the effects of nuclear war. In reality many more warheads would have been used.

[Lucker]

For a start I would put on my war head .
If you are going to be nuked , there is no point catching a head cold .
Look your best for a party , is my motto .

[kentuckydan]

[QUOTE=kentuckydan;8554]

my opinion is that when one country has certain type of weapons it gives her privilede including to use it against another country. if opposing country has the same type of weapons it gives balance.

i don't think iran can use nuclear weapons against israel, arnt' they too close to each other?

all those speeches that u say r just bla bla of certian politicians plus publicity made by mass media

Well Israel has had them for sometime, without using them.

You are using Western Logic about whether Iran will or will not bomb Israel.

Are you certain that logic is valid? Yes if it were a Western or in the Day Soviet Leader I would say it WAS bla bla of politicians

For that matter I miss the Soviets, I mean they were an Atheistic Regime and for the Victory of the Revolution to be ensured and the Radiant Future to Arrive, the world had to still exist.

NOW we deal with those who think that Armageddon is a REALLY GREAT THING

Because it would mean that they and all their co-adherents would go straight to Paradise.

You assume they just spout words to influence the masses I am not certain they do not really believe what they preach

Now THAT is a scary scenerio, because if you are wrong they have nothing to lose and everything to gain, in their eyes by a nuclear strike on Israel

All things proceed out of the Will of Allah and their is nothing done which is not according to His Will.

As I said Hitler and the Nazis did not try to make a secret of their plans for the Jews and no one took them seriously

Now we have Islamofacists who make no secret of their plans for the Jews and the responce is once again from to many quarters

Oh they don't REALLY mean that.

I take them at their word.

[dzerassa]

i don't really think iran has it or close to have it or wants to have it. i don't beleive to what usa administration says. after iraq somehow doubt, sorry

[Sveta's Hero]

i don't really think iran has it or close to have it or wants to have it. i don't beleive to what usa administration says. after iraq somehow doubt, sorry


So only time will tell.

[Lucker]

Jurassic
It's not just the US who say .........
The Inspectors have assured us there is enough enriched meat soup or muesli or something missing .This produces nasty tomato bombs or whatever uranium produces and then kepow and bing bang .
........
Ask Dan for the details . If the Russians start defending Iran , you can bet your last penny they are up to no good .

[Neilikka]

Of course, they will. Who doubts?

[sunontheway]

Back in 1984 or 85, there was a movie, "The Day After", I believe was the title. It was a ficticious movie about a nuclear war between the USSR and the USA. It showed how bad the fall-out, radiation, and the millions upon millions of deaths there would be in such a war. I was only about 13 at the time, but it scared the living daylights out of me. I remember the buzz surrounding this movie and it scared alot of other people too. I heard it was even shown in Russia, although I'm not sure. Maybe some members around my age or older remember this movie?

Yes Paul, I saw it here when I was a child. And the same feelings. I hope this movie cooled some hot heads in time.

[Hoopy]

I think this film was shown all over the world,I remember it too.

[kentuckydan]

i don't really think iran has it or close to have it or wants to have it. i don't beleive to what usa administration says. after iraq somehow doubt, sorry

Like the 500+ metric tons of yellowcake uranium we shipped out of Iraq? You know they were not supposed to have that and it would probably have been enough to purify and make about 100 bombs or so.

[alenika]

Like the 500+ metric tons of yellowcake uranium we shipped out of Iraq? You know they were not supposed to have that and it would probably have been enough to purify and make about 100 bombs or so.
Is this official statistics? As I heard US stated that they didn't find anything nuclear in Iraq and that yes, this was disinformation which made them to attack Iraq.

[kentuckydan]

Is this official statistics? As I heard US stated that they didn't find anything nuclear in Iraq and that yes, this was disinformation which made them to attack Iraq.



500+ Metric Tons of Purified “Yellow Cake” Uranium Removed From Hussein’s Storehouses in Iraq (http://1918.com/article.php?article_id=8305&type=read)

Sunday, July 6, 2008
From AP:
Canada is the new home to a massive stockpile of concentrated natural uranium from Iraq, the last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program.

The 550 tonnes of "yellowcake," the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment, was sold to Canadian uranium producer Cameco Corp. in a transaction the official described as worth "tens of millions of dollars."

[alenika]

[URL="http://1918.com/article.php?article_id=8305&type=read"] Canada is the new home to a massive stockpile of concentrated natural uranium from Iraq, the last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program.

The 550 tonnes of "yellowcake," the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment, was sold to Canadian uranium producer Cameco Corp. in a transaction the official described as worth "tens of millions of dollars." I didn't understand who sold the uranium? That is, who owned it?

And why Canada is allowed to have nuclear weapon?

And who wrote the article? Is this the only article about this? And what about official sources?

[kentuckydan]

I didn't understand who sold the uranium? That is, who owned it?

And why Canada is allowed to have nuclear weapon?

And who wrote the article? Is this the only article about this? And what about official sources?

Why don't you read the article? There might be answers there.\

For instance in regards

"And why Canada is allowed to have nuclear weapon?"

If had just taken a minute or two you would not have bothered with that question because
A ship carrying the cargo arrived Saturday in Montreal and Cameco spokesman Lyle Krahn said the yellowcake will be processed at facilities in Ontario for use in energy-producing reactors"
"

[alenika]

Why don't you read the article? There might be answers there.\

For instance in regards

"And why Canada is allowed to have nuclear weapon?"

If had just taken a minute or two you would not have bothered with that question because
A ship carrying the cargo arrived Saturday in Montreal and Cameco spokesman Lyle Krahn said the yellowcake will be processed at facilities in Ontario for use in energy-producing reactors"
" I read the article and there was no answers there, that's why I asked the question. Articles doesn't say why Canada is allowed to have something what Iran is not allowed to have. And maybe someone suspects that Canada is going to blow US for example :hmm: I don't understand why something what became a reason to attack country can be freely given to another country.

Article as well doesn't reply who was the seller and whom Canada paid for this yellow thing.

And it also doens't tell anything about official sources? Was the seller private person or corporation, or some government?

[Neilikka]

If that yellow something was brought from Iraq then who could be a seller? The answer is clear.

[alenika]

If that yellow something was brought from Iraq then who could be a seller? The answer is clear.It's not clear for me. What is clear is that it costs tens millions dollars.

And I also wonder how much they didn't sell and what for they used it. I mean those who were selling.

[kentuckydan]

I read the article and there was no answers there, that's why I asked the question.

Yes it does.


Articles doesn't say why Canada is allowed to have something what Iran is not allowed to have.

For nuclear power plants, Canada has never pursued a weapons program nor has it expressed a desire to wipe any other nation off the face of the earth



And maybe someone suspects that Canada is going to blow US for example :hmm: I don't understand why something what became a reason to attack country can be freely given to another country.

Well you have not thought it out that fully then have you?



Article as well doesn't reply who was the seller and whom Canada paid for this yellow thing.


And it also doens't tell anything about official sources? Was the seller private person or corporation, or some government?

Iraqi government officials sought buyers on the commercial market, where uranium prices spiked at about $120 per pound last year. It's currently selling for about half that.

The seller and who got the money was the Iraqi people, who paid for the stuff in the first place.

I close eyes to see better

Agreed.

[alenika]

I read the article and there was no answers there, that's why Iraqi government officials sought buyers on the commercial market, where uranium prices spiked at about $120 per pound last year. It's currently selling for about half that. Who discovered that Iraq has that yellow thing? They discovered and they gave back to Iraq government to sell it?

I close eyes to see better

Agreed. I don't see when there is nothing to see. Because I don't guess or imagine, but read the article. What you wrote later was extra information. Which is also can be either true or false.

Blind is not always the one who doesn't see things and asks of them, often blind is the one who thinks s/he knows everything and sees everything in the wrong way.

[kentuckydan]

Who discovered that Iraq has that yellow thing? They discovered and they gave back to Iraq government to sell it?

I don't see when there is nothing to see. Because I don't guess or imagine, but read the article. What you wrote later was extra information. Which is also can be either true or false.

Blind is not always the one who doesn't see things and asks of them, often blind is the one who thinks s/he knows everything and sees everything in the wrong way.

Here is a link to a website with more information and other links to sources including
the International Atomic Energy Commission

Which you could have found by yourself if you were interested or bothered

How Many Nuclear Weapons Can You Make from 500 Tons of Yellow Cake?
(http://butlerblog.com/2005/08/30/how-many-nuclear-weapons-can-you-make-from-500-tons-of-yellow-cake/)

Now after the Uranium information it is stated

"Our next discussion will focus on multiple reports of warheads loaded with sarin from different parts of Iraq. "

I do recall a report of an underground bunker with chemical artillery shells, now there were no shells that actually contained nerve gas, they are not usually stored filled
there were 55 gal drums of Insecticide Concentrate, so since the drums did not SAY Nerve gas, the storage was not listed as WMDs.

As we all know most Nations store insecticide in underground munnition bunkers.

But it was after all only Insecticide Concentrate, Cyclosarnin, which is?

Nerve Gas