Problems looming for Anglo American relations

[beezneesman]

If people with the background that the author of this article has is are saying things like this then the strains in the Anglo American relationship are really going to start showing soon.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/45336,opinion,liquid-bomb-plot-usa-must-never-be-allowed-to-blow-a-british-terror-probe-again

[RiverRock]

Where is Ramonrive?

[Voobrazheniye]

Maybe relations will go back to the way they were for most of the 19th century, when Britain was always trying to undermine the United States and supported any country or cause that was against the U.S. British support for the Confederacy in the U.S. Civil War is an example.

Or maybe the years just after WW-1, when many military planners thought that the next major war would be a naval war between Britain and the U.S. for control of trade via the seas.

Of course, the U.S. was "invaded" several times by the British in the second half of the 20th century, but each of those invasions was quitely readily accepted.

I still think that Britain's most incidious plot against the U.S. is something called "Mr. Bean.":lol:

[beezneesman]

Maybe relations will go back to the way they were for most of the 19th century, when Britain was always trying to undermine the United States and supported any country or cause that was against the U.S. British support for the Confederacy in the U.S. Civil War is an example.

Or maybe the years just after WW-1, when many military planners thought that the next major war would be a naval war between Britain and the U.S. for control of trade via the seas.

Of course, the U.S. was "invaded" several times by the British in the second half of the 20th century, but each of those invasions was quitely readily accepted.

I still think that Britain's most incidious plot against the U.S. is something called "Mr. Bean.":lol:

There's a lot of pressure been built up in recent years in relation to our relationship with the USA through significant British military involvement in 2 American wars which serve no purpose whatsoever for the UK. Sooner or later this particular dam is going to burst and my belief is it is likely to be sooner.

[Lucker]

We have no public figure that can help one way or the other in this debate at the present .
imho
I would have sided with Russia ten years ago when they were bankrupt and on their knees .
But something seems to have happened to our backbone . Instead of defending our Colonial days and using our tremendous political and diplomatic savvy to get into new virgin territory , we have hidden behind pillars of apology and minor guilt .
The Russians were there for the taking a decade ago and we could have taken them in hand , gently but persuasively , and got an outward looking Federation with a real and vibrant culture instead of a self obsessed , backward thinking Autocracy with a servile and spiritless population .Plus our own Gas and Oil lines , like that kock sucking Merkel woman has got .
By the same token I would be supporting Africa ,India and Brazil where we would benefit long term in limited and tightly defined areas of trade and development .
The Americans would remain useful for our Youth who wanted Sports Scholarships and as an outlet for our Entertainments industry to keep in work via undemanding audiences .
That's the key for us and the Yanks . Treat them like cousins but not the kissing sort and cetainly not as brothers -- at least until they learn to talk properly .

[huney]

The Americans would remain useful for our Youth who wanted Sports Scholarships and as an outlet for our Entertainments industry to keep in work via undemanding audiences .

And we Americans will have finally realised our collective dream of a purely service-based economy with the added benefit of immunity from the oh-so-dreaded out-sourcing.

[Neilikka]

Ramon,
Why do you use the Subjunctive Mood in your post?History doesn't know it. It knows only the Indicative Mood. You'd better admit that the USA is a superpower and there will never be equal partnership in the United Kingdom-America relationship. In what a way can Britain be useful to the USA? Can both countries trust each other? In no way, I think.

[dzerassa]

We have no public figure that can help one way or the other in this debate at the present .
imho
I would have sided with Russia ten years ago when they were bankrupt and on their knees .
But something seems to have happened to our backbone . Instead of defending our Colonial days and using our tremendous political and diplomatic savvy to get into new virgin territory , we have hidden behind pillars of apology and minor guilt .
The Russians were there for the taking a decade ago and we could have taken them in hand , gently but persuasively , and got an outward looking Federation with a real and vibrant culture instead of a self obsessed , backward thinking Autocracy with a servile and spiritless population .Plus our own Gas and Oil lines , like that kock sucking Merkel woman has got .
By the same token I would be supporting Africa ,India and Brazil where we would benefit long term in limited and tightly defined areas of trade and development .
The Americans would remain useful for our Youth who wanted Sports Scholarships and as an outlet for our Entertainments industry to keep in work via undemanding audiences .
That's the key for us and the Yanks . Treat them like cousins but not the kissing sort and cetainly not as brothers -- at least until they learn to talk properly .

wasn't this topic about anglo-american relations? how come russia is again a subject for discussion?

[Lucker]

"I would have " refers to a defined decision point of 10 years ago .
The subjunctive is technically and stylistically correct .
Trust that helps .



You do not comment on a defined matter ( Anglo/American relations ) unless you consider all other available options .
Your comment sounded like a criticism .
Do you think I made a mistake to remember the rest of the world ?
It is quite clear that I presented "Russia" as a missed opportunity and that China , India , Africa and Brazil had not slipped under the radar .
Trust that assists .

[Neilikka]

:confused:
Forgive my stupidity Ramon ( I am only another blonde), but I didn't understand what you wanted to say in your post. :clubonhead::hmm::Laie_50::viannen_52::viannen_52:

[IrmaMos]

Miracles happen

RiverRock, our new american expert in Folk russian literature and double standarts on democracy protection measures, needed Ramonrive, and he came, to make us, barbarians, enjoy the wisdom of his mind. We are very thankful! No criticism or flattery is meant. Ramon represents the age group, which perfectly accepted the traditional general line in the policy of anglo-american cooperation. Thats a double luck for anyone who is not living in Britain and America to get in touch with this interesting opinion, which is always very sharp and straight. I must give this man respect for not having any double standarts in his comments, which shows his dignity



I would have sided with Russia ten years ago when they were bankrupt and on their knees .
But something seems to have happened to our backbone . Instead of defending our Colonial days and using our tremendous political and diplomatic savvy to get into new virgin territory , we have hidden behind pillars of apology and minor guilt .
The Russians were there for the taking a decade ago and we could have taken them in hand , gently but persuasively , and got an outward looking Federation with a real and vibrant culture instead of a self obsessed , backward thinking Autocracy with a servile and spiritless population .Plus our own Gas and Oil lines , like that kock sucking Merkel woman has got .
.


"your colonial past" in Northe America is unfortunatelly just the past, ... americans have used all they wanted, declared their independance and started playing as your "backbone", pretending to be independant, but still making more gains for Britain using the force of guns....gaining "virgin terrorities" for anglo-american oil companies. Arent you proud of your backbone colonial present in Iraq? I really respect British colonial past, and curious to know, what Britain thinks about cooperation of european countries in Iraq? Are u satisfied with cooperation of anglo-american forces there? I admitt europeans are not enough determined in their actions

Together with America , you are very right about that, decade ago, starting since 1985, u tried to "take Russia in hand" , and all was going well for u, but suddenly " autocracy, self obsessed servile population" stood up, and have sent all what u have done to hell... what a disgusting, unfair uncivilized indians-barbars, communists behavior, ...and the dream about "you OWN Gas and Oil lines" pumping the resources from these barbarians, collapsed. Try to propose us some glass beads, as u did with weak indians who didnt have airforces and atom bombs for protection of their political and economy independance. As I remember, by 1700, the Lenape population in North America, amazing colonial british past, was diminished from 5000 to 200 in the nothern lands
It was really amazing! And what a perfect gain for everyone who is civilized and cares about freedom and democracy

I feel sorry, nothing like that didnt happen in Iraq, these barbarians, muslims, dont need their land either, you should have taken them, but they are too wild to remember any rules they agreed about...there is one more option, just to kill them all, like HItler would have done to all barbarians living in the East, but Britains dont like their hands dirty, more intelligent nation prefers to use "diplomatic savvy, "gently but persuasively" use americans in making not nicely smelling deeds

Interesting what my friends, native Britans, studying at the universities in Britain say about that comment of the old guard of the notorious colonial past...they will respresent the future of Britain..I agree they can be all doomed by russian propaganda and their opinion doesnt matter for this certain glamorous discussion

[Neilikka]

It's an interesting point-cunning witty Britains using harsh Americans to gain their own goals with clean hands. Great Irma! I didn't think of the relationships betwen these two countrie from his point of view. Thanks.

[Sveta's Hero]

It's an interesting point-cunning witty Britains using harsh Americans to gain their own goals with clean hands. Great Irma! I didn't think of the relationships betwen these two countrie from his point of view. Thanks.


The Brits followed the US into Iraq and Afghanistan, don't forget.

[beezneesman]

It's an interesting point-cunning witty Britains using harsh Americans to gain their own goals with clean hands. Great Irma! I didn't think of the relationships betwen these two countrie from his point of view. Thanks.

LOL if only that were true!!! :becky:

[Lucker]

Irma
If you think Autocracy in its present sense started to rear its head in 1985 ,first check out your own sources .
Autocracy started right about the time Boris Berezovsky got Putin the top job . And the supine population never knew and nearly all still don't .
Prior to VP , the Kontora guided matters with Putin possibly not seen as the future leader until around 1995 -- at the earliest and by very few . From the 1991 break up , and despite absurd attempts to democratise , the country sank to bankruptcy and was split by regional mobsters and gangsters ,and by factions of both the military and FSB . It was only when VP slowly and ruthlessly took control from 2000 that the vision of a State that was a ruling Oligarchy supporting an entity completely policed by a Secret State Force finally took shape .
Prior to that , it was devil take all .
Please don't paint some romantic picture of life in the late eighties and through the nineties . It stank . And it stank because there was not even enough food for people .
And don't imagine the vultures were picking your bones or particularly wanted to .
It did not happen that way and if the US and the West had wished , Russia would have been crushed in a conventional war in as definite a way as Russia crushed Georgia . Possibly the only reason that History never took that course was because we were scared rigid what a totally out of control Russian military might have done with Nuclear weapons , let alone the incredible stock of biological weapons which had been produced and were also stored .
I have few criticisms of how Russia was dragged to solvency by Putin in the first three or four years . How else could it have been done ? He was very lucky with Oil and Gas prices and his initial masterstroke of cementing the country through a common hate of Chechens was interesting .
But it was only then ( say , 2004 ) that a few of us first saw exactly what was going on .
This was the start of Pay Back time for VP personally, the man who had his world vision smashed when Communism and the USSR were toppled .

[beezneesman]

Ramon

Going back to the thread topic and the link I posted to Crispin Black's article. I would be interested in your opinion.

Black is very well informed. Former British Army officer and intelligence analyst. I feel he is being used a conduit to communicate messages publicly by insiders who for obvious reasons cannot openly communicate their displeasure with:
1. The way the Americans have ballsed up internal British antiterrorism investigations in particular
2. The wider conduct of America's so called 'War on Terror' in which Britain is participating on 2 fronts for no obvious gain to us with a mish mash of confusing and conflicting objectives (if indeed there are any actual objectives).

My feeling is that after 2 years of hard campaigning in Helmand with no tangible results, the strains of fighting in campaigns that are driven by someone elses misguided ideology are beginning to show inside the military and security services.

It will take a bit longer for these issues to percolate through to our rather dozy British public but I can see the cracks really starting to show by the time of the next election, especially if the next 2 years in Helmand are as futile as the last 2. I think we need at least 5-10 years breathing space in this country where we tell other people to get stuffed and focus solely on hard headed pursuit of our own national interests both domestically and internationally. If that involves telling the septics to sort their own mess out on their own then so be it.

[IrmaMos]

Irma
If you think Autocracy in its present sense started to rear its head in 1985 ,first check out your own sources .
Autocracy started right about the time Boris Berezovsky got Putin the top job . And the supine population never knew and nearly all still don't .
Prior to VP , the Kontora guided matters with Putin possibly not seen as the future leader until around 1995 -- at the earliest and by very few . From the 1991 break up , and despite absurd attempts to democratise , the country sank to bankruptcy and was split by regional mobsters and gangsters ,and by factions of both the military and FSB . It was only when VP slowly and ruthlessly took control from 2000 that the vision of a State that was a ruling Oligarchy supporting an entity completely policed by a Secret State Force finally took shape .
Prior to that , it was devil take all .
Please don't paint some romantic picture of life in the late eighties and through the nineties . It stank . And it stank because there was not even enough food for people .
And don't imagine the vultures were picking your bones or particularly wanted to .
It did not happen that way and if the US and the West had wished , Russia would have been crushed in a conventional war in as definite a way as Russia crushed Georgia . Possibly the only reason that History never took that course was because we were scared rigid what a totally out of control Russian military might have done with Nuclear weapons , let alone the incredible stock of biological weapons which had been produced and were also stored .
I have few criticisms of how Russia was dragged to solvency by Putin in the first three or four years . How else could it have been done ? He was very lucky with Oil and Gas prices and his initial masterstroke of cementing the country through a common hate of Chechens was interesting .
But it was only then ( say , 2004 ) that a few of us first saw exactly what was going on .
This was the start of Pay Back time for VP personally, the man who had his world vision smashed when Communism and the USSR were toppled .


Thanks for your response, very interesting opinion...but I hardly remember, I wrote that "Autocracy in RF started in 1985", quote me correctly, please, if you ever do.

My quote was:"Together with America , you are very right about that, decade ago, starting since 1985, u tried to "take Russia in hand" , and all was going well for u, but suddenly " autocracy, self obsessed servile population" stood up..."
Please, dont change the words in order to write smth hillarious. Autocracy- as a method to rule people was the simpliest and first form of governing in the history of human civilization. All these greeke experiments with Senates came into history lots centuries ago after autocracy existed in the ancient civilizations. Dont want to upset you,but monarchy is a form of autocracy, existed in your wonderful island since 1085 (Wilgelm Norman, some sources say it was 1066)

My opinion about the facts you used in your comment.
Berezovsky did a lot to make Putin the leader, but his main mistake was that he didnt suppose the Kontora will start its own game being not interested anymore in money from outside, cause by that time, when Putin started play the rules made by Kontora, the oil lines already were in the hands of national companies(Gazprom, Ukos was the first pro-western company which was collapsed for the games played in Parliament). So now Berezovsky must be somewhere in London shopping. I dont think Russians are worried about his absence. We better play the rules of Pro-russian Kontore, then anglo-american clique who want "by gentle hand " use our oil lines. By the way, Englishmen seem to be not really worried about their own men who were organizing revolutions, using very strict measures. Cromwel was the one who did. You always only remember Lenin. Seems so, you can be now proud, your secret services and diplomacy can protect your country from additional outside interferences and inside factors of distabilization. Noone is trying to change the world map taking a piece from you and none is trying to bring into your country new rules of "democracy", cause u r not civilized enough.( In the eyes of asian people western culture is not civilized and is captured by sins.) Try to guess how you will fight, using what weapons if they decide to bring their principles of democracy to your country. I guess u tried already in Iraq. But what will u do if they come to your place with their guns and tanks?Is that the reason you are so scared of their atom experiments? Iran is very close to show western world that they also know what democracy is

You are very right about the so called "democratic times" (since 1991) when gangsters and mobsters were taking advantages using the absence of strength in goverment who was busy selling the country resources and sending money to Britain. Try to guess, where did Berezovsky found the money to buy huge property in the UK? He never had any rich granny, and never created any Microsoft company.

You also are very right , saying that:
"It was only when VP slowly and ruthlessly took control from 2000 that the vision of a State that was a ruling Oligarchy supporting an entity completely policed by a Secret State Force finally took shape .
Prior to that , it was devil take all ."

Thats why Putin's team strategy now serves the country, protecting its strategic interests

"Please don't paint some romantic picture of life in the late eighties and through the nineties . It stank . And it stank because there was not even enough food for people ."

do you know what people say about Gorbachev? they say, he sold the country. Do you know when they would be saying that? I have heard it myself, standing in line for bread in Moscow in 90s, not now when as you think Putin brainwashed us all

"It did not happen that way and if the US and the West had wished , Russia would have been crushed in a conventional war in as definite a way as Russia crushed Georgia . Possibly the only reason that History never took that course was because we were scared rigid what a totally out of control Russian military might have done with Nuclear weapons"

True comment, If you only could you would eliminate us as american indians(they didnt have crazy military generals and no nuclear weapons to protect themselves, thats why they were called non civilized and eliminated), and dont say, that we didnt need our land and you would better take care of our resources with your "gentle hand" Thank you very much. Fix your issue with the growing oil prices and collapse in the property market urself, not using our resources.

"But it was only then ( say , 2004 ) that a few of us first saw exactly what was going on ."

If you could only go to students forum (these guys are educated and young) , lets say to the forum of the Leeds Institute of the colonial and post colonial resourches, you would say, they are all brainwashed by Putin's Kontore and are not Brits, but they are native britains who dont have this fear of Russia and dont want colonial ango-american friendship back, and definitly dont want to use guns in solving oil issues

But I agree, America is a wonderful tool in your "gentle hands" to play the world around and always has been.
Isnt it frustrating that in the modern world britain any longer is not the leader, and even its toy puppet armed with guns and sсreaming the principles of the "democracy"( which never work towards the ones you want to conquest and eliminate) can not force nations to act as you wish?

Im really impressed with you being so open minded and truthful in your explanations. It might be sad for you that new generation of educated Brits are not that straight forward in getting what you need for the gain of your Crown

[zoroooo]

Gabber,

whats you opinon and all that blabla;..shouldn't you organize some special relaxing trips for forum membesr.I would like to sugest Iramos and ramon both to have a wild night together.

But gabber you check irma that she hasnt a ramboo knife with her.And raimond shout put his theets in a glas of water and hand them over to you.


dr freud.:cool:

[IrmaMos]

Gabber,

whats you opinon and all that blabla;..shouldn't you organize some special relaxing trips for forum membesr.I would like to sugest Iramos and ramon both to have a wild night together.

But gabber you check irma that she hasnt a ramboo knife with her.And raimond shout put his theets in a glas of water and hand them over to you.


dr freud.:cool:

Please, be respectful...Im married now, my husband is european citizen...if you are allowed to disrespect weak russian women, at keep friendly with european males!!!

He is suffering from me enough, trust me

and Im not killing men in respectful age by wild sex, im not a terrorist and i care about alive creatures, and I dont cheat


Gabber, protect the reputation of married women from wild nights with guys whos teeth are in glass of water, im scared of this image of that glass

[Lucker]

Im really impressed with you being so open minded and truthful in your explanations. It might be sad for you that new generation of educated Brits are not that straight forward in getting what you need for the gain of your Crown[/QUOTE]

Irma ,
Yes , I probably did misread your reference of 1985 though it does not affect my thrust whatsoever .
"Gorbachev" is where this type of discussion tends to fall to pieces . The West sees him as the only Russian of his political generation who had the slightest vision and ability to objectively analyse the ruling situation within the USSR and in terms of its future as a World power .Compared to those who went before him and those who surrounded him , we regard him as a visionary , humanitarian and , in his own way , a force for peace and goodwill that ranks him alongside people like Luther King and Nelson Mandela .
To our disbelief and complete horror we see that he has been re-written in Russia as a stooge of the West who sold Russia "down the river" .
There is absolutely no shred of evidence that I have ever heard of that suggests that he was anything more than a very intellectual , sensitive Russian who tried his best to take control of a run down dinosaur and breathe new life into it .
I can understand why Gorbachev has been re-written but his crimes were to try and achieve a century of reform in two or three years and not understand whatsoever the social pressures he let out of the bag .
Time and time again we have seen countries ( America does spring to mind ) attempt to release people to Democracy .
Iraq is a present example .
There is implosion as tribes fight to solve old hatreds and establish the new pecking order .
We think of Democracy as a simple matter and it is something we breathe and live . We forget that it has to be learned and that the system is actually very complex , exceedingly elegant and superbly sophisticated .
Gorbachev had the right model but had little idea how to administer and exploit it .But he was the first person to give Russians the right to truly create their own destiny within several hundred years .
Russia was amazingly unlucky to then give power to a not very clever alcoholic and it was he who actually bankrupted Russia of its resources and worthwhile infrastructure because apart from being alcoholic he was a Mafia style gangster .
You may wonder where we are going with this dialogue because I have not even reached most of the points that came out of our respective previous Posts .
But my belief is that without understanding what truly happened from 1985 to 1995 , there is little real chance of understanding what then followed and "why" .
So I will pause here and whilst I do not expect agreement on Gorbachev's great legacy to your country , I want you to know how he is seen and regarded by people like myself who bend over backwards to be objective -- even if that is not appreciated by all Forum contributors .
These last few words I consider the crunch material .
The way Gorbachev is seen and evaluated completely determines how you regard the way Russia is run today and its place in the world .
If you think he was weak , a stooge of the West and even corrupt , you will not want anything that even remotely reminds you of his period of failure .You will see him as the beginning of an illness that can be laid at the feet of the US and West who were trying to hoodwink the USSR .
And that is how your greatest hero of the last century has been re-written so that you can be groomed for the next stage of the seduction and rape which you are living through now .
It is a concentrated and sophisticated argument but I seriously commend it to you for private thought and consideration .
I would bet my life in front of God that it is what actually happened and is the key to understanding your present and future .

Anybody reach this far ?

[Lucker]

Irma
That style of Post is 100% fun and completely normal over here .
Whether that is "good " or " not so good " is something to discuss .
But whilst Sorrow does not need me to justify his words , I understand him totally and disrespect never entered his left lobe . His left testicle , perhaps .
But shut up Raymondo .

[IrmaMos]

Thank you, very interesting to read

"To our disbelief and complete horror we see that he has been re-written in Russia as a stooge of the West who sold Russia "down the river" .
There is absolutely no shred of evidence that I have ever heard of that suggests that he was anything more than a very intellectual , sensitive Russian who tried his best to take control of a run down dinosaur and breathe new life into it ."

I admitt you never heard anything different cause you didnt read a lot in russian, and I perfectly understand why western world sponsored Gorbachev in all his activity. I know this man as a very soft, intelligent man , who is worth of respect, he is the graduate of the same university in Russia, and I had the chance to experience his intelligence...but he was too soft to rule the country.

But I respect what he has done, he did his best, he really believed in things he did, I dont deny values of democracy such as equal for everyone right, peaceful solution of conflicts, thats why I DONT accept military solutions and double standarts so often used by american politicians, at the end , we, simple people, always believe in things we see and hear on TV , and these things are gven to TV by politicians .

Raymondo, dont shut up... its very interesting to read you

( do u really have teeth in the glass at night?)

[Neilikka]

Raymondo, dont shut up... its very interesting to read you

( do u really have teeth in the glass at night?):brushteeth::hug:

[IrmaMos]

By the way, anyone of our english or american tribunes ever heard or read smth written by George Orwell, famous english writer, who was born in India, at that time english colony, then studied in England and gives wonderful opinions about the same matters we talk here about, but in a historical perspective

He participated in the Civil war in Spain in 1936-1939 and then wrote his notes about how tv and media lies to people changing their opinion about war , and how goverments use this instruments in their political games for gain, usually for personal gain, bringing people into wars, making them believe today that War is for their good, tomorrow, that it is against ther interests...interesting what he wrote about Russians in this war ..."the only propaganda trick which media used was that it persuaded people that they must have protected their country from dictate of Russians",...but he writes, that in reality goverment was supporting the growing Nazi regime of Franko, cause illusional fears of Russia were stronger...he says that in 1936 English leaders at that time were so scared of Russia that prefered to give Spain to the Nazi regime of Franko...

If you dont believe my translation, you can easily read it in the original, just brief note of the englishman who was involved in these actions in Spain and hardly can be called the Putin's propaganda employee

"
Что касается широких масс, их мнения, необычайно быстро меняющиеся в
наши дни, их чувства, которые можно регулировать, как струю воды из-под
крана,-- все это результат гипнотического воздействия радио и телевидения. У
интеллигентов подобные метаморфозы, я думаю, скорее вызваны заботами о
личном благополучии и просто о физической безопасности. В любую минуту они
могут оказаться и "за" войну, и "против" войны, ни в том, ни в другом случае
отчетливо не представляя себе, что она такое.

Единственный пропагандистский трюк, который мог удасться нацистам и
фашистам, заключался в том, чтобы изобразить себя христианами и патриотами,
спасающими Испанию от диктатуры русских. Чтобы этому поверили, надо было
изображать жизнь в контролируемых правительством областях как непрерывную
кровавую бойню

Меня пугают подобные вещи, потому что нередко они заставляют думать,
что в современном мире вообще исчезло понятие объективной истины. Кто
поручится, что подобного рода или сходная ложь в конце концов не проникнет в
историю?

Самое непостижимое в испанской войне -- это позиция великих держав.
Фактически войну выиграли для Франко немцы и итальянцы, чьи мотивы были
совершенно ясны. Труднее осознать мотивы, которыми руководствовались Франция
и Англия. Кто в 1936 году не понимал, что, достаточно было Англии оказать
испанскому правительству помощь, хотя бы поставив оружия на несколько
миллионов фунтов, Франко был бы разгромлен, а по немцам нанесен мощный удар.
Не требовалось в то время быть ясновидящим, чтобы предсказать близящуюся
войну Англии с Германией; можно было даже с определенностью назвать дату ее
начала -- через год или два. И тем не менее самым подлым, трусливым и
лицемерным способом английские правящие классы отдали Испанию Франко и
нацистам. Почему? Самый простой ответ: потому что были профашистски
настроены.

Называя имена людей, которые поддерживают фашизм или оказали ему свои
услуги, поражаешься, как они несхожи. Что за конгломерат! Назовите мне иную
политическую платформу, которая сплотила бы таких приверженцев, как Гитлер,
Петен, Монтегю Норман, Павелич, Уильям Рэндолф Херст, Стрейчер, Бухман, Эзра
Паунд, Хуан Марч, Кокто, Тиссен, отец Кафлин, муфтий Иерусалимский, Арнольд
Ланн, Антонеску, Шпенглер, Биверли Николс, леди Хаустон и Маринетти, побудив
их всех сесть в одну лодку! Но на самом деле это несложно объяснить. Все они
из тех, кому есть что терять, или мечтатели об иерархическом обществе,
которые страшатся самой мысли о мире, где люди станут свободны и оавны. За
всем крикливым пустословием насчет "безбожной" России и вульгарного
"материализма", отличающего пролета-риат, скрывается очень простое желание
людей с деньгами и привилегиями удержать им принадлежащее."
(Источник: Джордж Оруэлл, Эссе, статьи, рецензии Т. 2., 1992.
2000, Библиотека "Sensational News (by Utkasmerti)"

[RiverRock]

Irmamos: RiverRock, our new american expert in Folk russian literature and double standarts on democracy protection measures, needed Ramonrive, and he came, to make us, barbarians, enjoy the wisdom of his mind.

Remember that this thread was supposed to be about American and English relations. That is why I asked for the wisdom of Ramonrive's mind.

It's an interesting point-cunning witty Britains using harsh Americans to gain their own goals with clean hands. Great Irma! I didn't think of the relationships betwen these two countrie from his point of view. Thanks.

It is an interesting point indeed. It is ironic that the main sore point between Britain and America (from the article link in the first post of this thread) is that Britain doesn't like to be perceived as servile and obedient to the U.S.

[RiverRock]

Irmamos: He participated in the Civil war in Spain in 1936-1939 and then wrote his notes about how tv and media lies to people changing their opinion about war , and how goverments use this instruments in their political games for gain, usually for personal gain, bringing people into wars, making them believe today that War is for their good, tomorrow,...

This is very True. That is why it is very important for all the people and the media to have the freedom to criticize the government without fear!! And also for the power of government to belong to as many people as possible instead of power being centralized to a few criminal leaders.

[Lucker]

Before looking at any sort of relation with anyone , we need to get this " teeth in the glass " matter sorted .
This demonstrates the nasty , spiteful side of you witches admirably !!!
I have assumed that Nelly is a certain "grande dame " from downtown Leningrad and that Irma is the failed URPO trainee who had to decamp after cutting her boss's throat after a particularly unsatisfactory evening
As it happens , you both know a certain third party -- discretion , mein herr --- who could give an independent asssessment . I am sure she would not like to tell naughty naughties for I am like Patreyev and Berezovsky --- I could blow open the can of worms , should I choose .

As regards more serious matters , I shall write again , but , as this is the last day my unservile Polish men are working for a fortnight , I need to watch them carefully in case they try to run off to downtown Poland with the Crown Jewels --- mine , that is .