What is a higher virtue for you?

[RioRita]

Have you ever heard of Pavlik Morozov who was supposedly killed by "kulak" relatives for denouncing his father to Stalin's secret police (OGPU-NKVD)?
All villagers where Pavlik lived refused to join the kolkhoz, a state-controlled collective farm during the collectivization.
Pavlik informed on neighbors when they did something wrong, including his own father.
His life exemplified the duty of all good Soviet citizens to become informers, even at the expense of family ties.It was a Soviet morality tale: opposing the state was selfish and reactionary, and state was a higher virtue than family love.
What is your attitude to such people like Pavlik?

[krevedko]

Pavlik is a hero. To become a real hero a person should die for his beliefs.
So it's a good thing the relatives topped the little b@stard. :becky:

[statajack]

The classroom sneak, although seemingly trying to garner favour from the "authorities", will always eventually end up with their face in the mud..... permanently.

Pavlik was a miserable excuse for a human being, and should be thankful (if indeed possible when dead) that somebody put him out of his misery.

[RiverRock]

His life exemplified the duty of all good Soviet citizens to become informers, even at the expense of family ties.It was a Soviet morality tale: opposing the state was selfish and reactionary, and state was a higher virtue than family love.

Holy poop! Fook the state. I will stick with my family over country, money, religion, life,.. every time.

What percentage of the Soviet population, would you say went along with such beliefs? What percentage of Russians today are still fooled by a little less obvious brainwashing?

[8bigwheels]

very difficult to talk about civil wars, where fathers kill sons and on the contrant...

another thing is that pavlik was really little boy and hardly he could have his own oppinion. usually in that age kids want to be like their parents, they take parents advices ect... maybe he is really betryed his father, but it was another adult who told Pavlik to do so promissing him something ...yes i believe it was game of adults...

[Hoopy]

Fooking grass :mad:

[statajack]

very difficult to talk about civil wars, where fathers kill sons and on the contrant...

another thing is that pavlik was really little boy and hardly he could have his own oppinion. usually in that age kids want to be like their parents, they take parents advices ect... maybe he is really betryed his father, but it was another adult who told Pavlik to do so promissing him something ...yes i believe it was game of adults...

An interesting development in Pavlik's story........ even more saddening.

[8bigwheels]

An interesting development in Pavlik's story........ even more saddening.


nobody knows exact fakts about Pavlik ...Only one thing for sure that Stalin and Co used his deather for their PR action. propogand their regime. telling others how they should behaive

[hannah]

Have you ever heard of Pavlik Morozov who was supposedly killed by "kulak" relatives for denouncing his father to Stalin's secret police (OGPU-NKVD)?
All villagers where Pavlik lived refused to join the kolkhoz, a state-controlled collective farm during the collectivization.
Pavlik informed on neighbors when they did something wrong, including his own father.
His life exemplified the duty of all good Soviet citizens to become informers, even at the expense of family ties.It was a Soviet morality tale: opposing the state was selfish and reactionary, and state was a higher virtue than family love.
What is your attitude to such people like Pavlik?yep,there was story about pavlic morozov who probably never exist but what is really pity that he had about 40000000 followers which supposedly believed that Pavilic was hero and informed on everyone is good thing for sovit citezens. most of people simply was brainwashed that time by sovit propaganda but not every one,some made choice to became informers only in porpuse to survive in sovit sistem which in fact even more disgusting.that period of sovit history a bit dark that's why there is some doubt about pavlic morozov existance.

[Marta-Smarta]

Patience is a virtue, ignorance is bliss. Love and be loved, give and be given, do as you are told...
My Granny lost 6 of her dear cousins in the terrible Hellfire of Auschwitz-Birkenau. All girls aged 12-20) died in the gas chambers and then cremated.
What reminds me of them is just an old sepia family photo in the silver frame, and a record on the memorial board.
I remember the Soviet children-heroes, who fought bravily for their own native land; just thinking about it, I recall black and white monumental portraits from the secondary school textbooks - Zeena Portnova, Alexander Matrosov, Marat Kazej, Lenja Golikov, and, of course, Valentine Kotick and Pavlik Morozov.
I won't discuss the ideology aspect now, as consider it irrelevant in this particular topic, but would like to thank our nation for such wonderful teenage souls, that many generations of people all over the world still would be proud of, not in death, and not in grief, but in life.
May Gods bless those pure young patriotic souls and take care of them forever.

[RioRita]

Sorry, I am afraid you have misunderstood me.
It wasn't my aim to tell you about Pavlik. There were and are thousands of people like him and not only in Russia.
I would like to find out your opinion about those people who have become informers. Who have reported and are reporting now on their neighbours, friends, members of their families.What excuse can be for their behaviour?

[8bigwheels]

Правакатарша ты Ритка аднака:becky:


ask Zadornov where many Pavliks living now:)

[pouffe]

Sorry, I am afraid you have misunderstood me.
It wasn't my aim to tell you about Pavlik. There were and are thousands of people like him and not only in Russia.
I would like to find out your opinion about those people who have become informers. Who have reported and are reporting now on their neighbours, friends, members of their families.What excuse can be for their behaviour?

Somebody is calling me here?

[pouffe]

I think time is going for me now to report again a little.

[8bigwheels]

I think time is going for me now to report again a little.

why are you doing this Pasha:confused: you report on friends, family, ect?

[pouffe]

why are you doing this Pasha:confused: you report on friends, family, ect?
For the moment nothing about you...

[RioRita]

AHA!
So Pouffe is Pasha! Voobrajenie?

[hannah]

Правакатарша ты Ритка аднака:becky:


ask Zadornov where many Pavliks living now:)no sense to ask Zadornov because pavliks are still living everywhere,it is known fact.actually we even have some here:lol:dont you know about them?;)

[slkasop]

It depends on who value programmed you. Your value programming and core beliefs are usually set by the age of 18. Whoever gave you your values will influence your actions and your beliefs. If the state gave Pavlik his values, then what he did was not against his core beliefs. This is contrary to Russian values of family but that is the way of people. His family should have tried harder to instill different values or overcome the state's programming. Instead, he was killed because his family failed to raise him correctly. That is to put family and blood ahead of all other considerations.

Now that he is unmasked, will he put the picture of the cat back and start writing in orange again?

[pouffe]

AHA!
So Pouffe is Pasha! Voobrajenie?

Do you really think that Pasha could wear such a dress than mine?

[8bigwheels]

Do you really think that Pasha could wear such a dress than mine?


i missed you:tulip: take of your dress, wig, make up, and come back to me:) i forgive everything:peace:

[statajack]

If Pouffe is Vooby......... I'm a giraffe. :cool:

[RioRita]

Ha! Pasha was able to wear even a tiger skin!

[Sveta's Hero]

Do any of you really think Voob would disguise himself as a cross-dressing Frenchie?:p:lol:

[RioRita]

Stata, your parrot happens to turn up a giraffe! :eek::lol::peace:

[statajack]

Stata, your parrot happens to turn up a giraffe! :eek::lol::peace:

Riot........ it's a golden pheasant......... called "The Colonel". :becky:

[RioRita]

Ramon also calls himself Colonel. I still think he is only Captain Fantastico.

To tell the truth, I would prefer to think of Pouffe as of a Frenchman. But his English is suspiciously too good.

[elane-ellie]

Well, it is undoubtedly a question of interest and of importance - to discuss a virtue, high moral standards and goodness.. It is significantly harder to behave in a proper way. We can claim a lot of things - but let's try being honest to ourselves.
Some philosopher, probably Schopenghauer, said: "Two points are used to incredibly amaze me and make me deadly terrified at the same time: starry sky above me and a moral codex inside me".
Soviet boy Pavlik Morozov taking as an example - is most likely not an excellent example. Because a boy immersed into the atmospere of very suppressive ideology couldn't be a typical illustration of human beings' behaviour. We know planty of examples as well as we do know any "-ism" has an awful smell always (read racism, communism, fascism, feminism etc.). And we hardly can say how would we act being in some extremal extraordinary situation.
Let's talk about us today - even if you do not want to talk telling everybody about your outer world and external reactions..
Because we are who people think we are, we are who we think we are, but the most meaningful is - who we are relatively our deeds in fact. I presume, that is the quintessence of the matter.

[Shadow-off]

Well let me think and associate for a moment. Who is like Pavlik Morozov ?

Law enforcement, Federal, State County and Federal That's why they now have a witness protection program. So I guess anyone that supports them might also be more like Pavlik Morozov right ? Then there was the infamous J. Edgar Hoover of the 50's and 60's in America. So I think there are many Pavlik Morozov's in the world. Our world is filled with hypocrasy. We will go wage war against a foreign agressor but gangs and the Mafia still exist. So what's more important; the killing in the homeland or the killing in a foreign land. I think the ambition of Pavlik Morozov and his current world followers is to destroy for the benefit of self or some cause these people fear may fail without subvervise inititives. It's Spy VS Spy and the best angle is to use the efforts of an enemy against them. So am I like Pavlik Morozov ? Yes and no; it depends on the cause and I think you are as well.

[Lucker]

I am surprised none of you have researched the Pavlik story , for the overwhelming preponderance of evidence is that the whole story is a complete load of nonsense .
It never happened .
I gather the two accepted authorities on the subject are Catriona Kelly and Yuri Druzhnikov .
The probabilty is that the Father was a a nasty piece of work who eventually left his wife and family . Little 13 year old Pavlik was far from a blue eyed idealist and was probably killed by other youngsters in a row over a gun he had acquired .

[Shadow-off]

Because we are who people think we are, we are who we think we are, but the most meaningful is - who we are relatively our deeds in fact. I presume, that is the quintessence of the matter.

Are there 52 cards in a deck of playing cards? Some will say yes and some will say 54 or 55; as they generally come with 2 jokers and an instruction card. I like making people feel I'm a few cards short of a full deck. Would you play with an incomplete deck of cards ? :becky:

No one is afraid of a fool or a failure. It is an advantage if you think deeply enough. My goal is to associate with kind, understanding, and loving people; as rare as they are to find. So when I leave the house and when I am online I am something i'm not and always changing colors and patterns, designed to confuse, confound and bewilder people. Trust should never be given; only earned and I think Integrity, loyalty and devotion are the same. The ultimate question I have about anyone I meet is " Can I trust you with my life ?" if I can we are friends; if I can't we are only strangers.

[Shadow-off]

Ramonrive:

Ah my friend; but the post of the story was designed as a lure for some other ulterior motive. So whether it was true or false; it has served the purpose of the poster.

[elane-ellie]

The point is not in the exact story, let's start from the very beginning!
The question was - look above - "What is the higher virtue for you?" It is not about some partuicularity, I presume.. It is rather a "trigger moment" for us to get thinking about our own behaviour and reactions. About highly subjectiver but actual matters such as "good and evil" , and FREE CHOICE

[Shadow-off]

Elane: Personally I think what s best is that people should remain slient about the goals and purposes of others. It's just what they do, and may not be what you, and I do or agree with. Unless those things come to personally hurt you then they are better left alone. Becoming involved is virtuous, but it is also often dangerous. In relation to the story I feel Stalins police have a job they are paid to do. Let them find on their own who they are looking for. People that do wrong understand the associated risks involved but people that inform for any reason don't understand what they might get themselves involved with. The ramifications range from nothing to fatal for the informer. The informer also chooses to make that choice.

[Lucker]

Shadow , dear chap .
Thanks for your concern that I might be hoodwinked . By Anand , Kramnik or Kasparov , perhaps . But not by young Bella?
Never in a hundred years .
The situation was a deceit .
Not because it did not actually happen , but because the circumstances were not given accurately --- the fact that the boy was under age in every sense .

If you changed the situation and had a notional "hero" of 19 , say , not much alters . The kid would be guilty of being brain washed and just sincere . I would argue that in such a fictional scenario he was guilty of murder -- he would know that his actions would bring retribution . Therefore , he should be dealt with through the process of Law .
Unfortunately , sincerity is one of the most dangerous weapons available .
It fuels all religions and can be an easy hiding place from ignorance and resultant arrogance .
Look at a certain contribution in the Georgia Topic . Quite breathtaking in its sincerity . But what an appalling admission .

[RioRita]

I will repeat for that person who hasn't understood anything yet.( A baby boy Ramon).:clubonhead::clubonhead::clubonhead::light: :clubonhead::clubonhead::clubonhead:

We are talking not about the Pavlik from the Soviet past. We are talking about such a phenomena which can be called a Pavlik. We are talking about the reasons that make people in different countries and in all times become informers. :lol:

[Lucker]

Bella ,
Do you really think it took me more than one half a millisecond to see that ?
Instead of imagining you are directing a second invasion of Georgia , you might have bothered to read my two separate replies .
In the first , I reminded you that the story as presented was one built on complete falsehood
In the second, I gave you my view on the general ( assumed ) moral dilemma .
Clearly , it only becomes a problem in an undemocratic regime . Matters can be resolved in a country like ours by the Rule Of Law . Any killings are treated as murder and a defensive plea based on sincerity is as logically compelling as the defendent telling us that they were compelled by the phase of the moon or eating too much cream cheese .
It would be fair to recognise that the ultimate killer seems to escape ---- the state and/or the force responsible for brain washing .
Against that , States that preach through brain washing seem to pay a catastrophic price if you wait long enough . Your own country is good proof of that , imho

[RioRita]

No, it's impossible!You can't understans simple things. You are blaming Russia for everything which can happen in any country. I give up. :faint:

[Koshka]

No, it's impossible!You can't understans simple things. You are blaming Russia for everything which can happen in any country. I give up. :faint:

The debris of British Empire envies Russian empire:eek::faint:

[Lucker]

No, it's impossible!You can't understans simple things. You are blaming Russia for everything which can happen in any country. I give up. :faint:


The fact is , Bella , that the matter is very complex which is why it is dangerous for Russian minds who live and breathe simplicity --- black and white and doing as you are told etc .
On what basis do you imagine national character develops ?
Do you think that the Universal Laws of Karma are just reserved for individuals ?
Can you distinguish between " blame " and "consequences " ?
What makes you imagine that Russia is "blamed" for happenings not involving Russia or its people ? The thought was never introduced by me .
Oh Bella . Your Post was rather Pravda .ru in its lack of careful thought and preparation .
My end of term report is , " Could and should do better "

[RioRita]

Do you really believe in such thing as a"national character"?
What is the difference between you and Russian pensioners argueing on politics with the same arguments taken from the same newspapers ? You are very much alike, I assure you. I haven't noticed even once your difference from any stubborn retired Russian Colonel, Captain Fantastico.

[Lucker]

I believe that there is such a thing as national character --- you only have to use your eyes and ears to see the obviousness of the claim , though its details may be difficult to define and verbalise .
But I could not follow the rest of your Post .
What pensioners ? What papers ? What views ?
Am I guilty of something because I did not find that revolting kid a fairy tale hero or a saint in disguise somehow blessed with amazing moral insight ?
Is it a romantic let down because I suggest that a young man of legal adulthood should be tried for Murder because he effectively committed murder ?
I apologise for not being a wishy washy thinker quite happy to make exceptions in order to fabricate a lie.
Or are you cleverly trying to show me how rotten this idea of the Russian soul really is ?

[RioRita]

At last! But not only Russian.

[Shadow-off]

Every country in the World strives to be the greatest. We all make up a world community and that is a great thing; allowing us to see and experience different , cultures, customs and technology. Sure there are negatives about every place and among isolated groups of people. We all know or communicate with each other here. Who among us would be happy that any person was sick, or at risk of some dangerous thing ?. We have two focuses; a negative view or a positive view and we can choose which we want to focus on about any country.

" Fear : The darkroom where negatives are developed " ....A fortune cookie. :becky: