NATO’s navy delivers weapons to Georgia under the guise of humanitarian aid

[Neilikka]

NATO’s navy delivers weapons to Georgia under the guise of humanitarian aid
NATO has been increasing its naval presence in the Black Sea during the recent several days. We have the main attack force of NATO’s navy in the Black Sea, which acts under the guise of delivering humanitarian cargo or holding military exercises.
The US Navy destroyer USS McFaul, which is currently docked in the Georgian port of Batumi, carries about 50 Tomahawk cruise missiles on board. They are outfitted with nuclear warheads and are meant to hit ground targets. The remaining NATO ships are currently concentrated in the northern part of the Black Sea.
Other NATO ships drifting in the Black Sea were armed with 64 anti-ship Harpoon missiles and about eight helicopters.
Washington insists that the ships, which appeared near Georgia’s shores, have been deployed there in accordance with George W. Bush’s decision, who ordered to deliver humanitarian aid to the Georgian military. Other NATO warships – Germany’s Luebeck, Spain’s Adm. Juan de Bourbon and Poland’s General K. Pulaski arrived to the shores of Bulgaria and Romania to participate in the military exercise that was scheduled long ago and has nothing to do with the conflict in Georgia.
It is strange that such a large group of NATO warships has arrived for a joint exercise with Bulgaria or Romania. Usually, only one or two warships participate in such exercises, so the attempts to substantiate the presence of the naval group with a military exercise does not withstand any criticism.
The use of nuclear weapons by NATO ships in the Black Sea is out of the question. The conventional weapons, which the NATO naval group has in the region, are more than enough to achieve any defense goals, which can be exemplified with Yugoslavia.
The port of Batumi is the only port, which US warships can access on the Georgian territory. The port of Poti, which is larger and more convenient, remains under the control of Russia’s troops.
Russia is concerned about a possibility to deliver military hardware to Georgia on board NATO warships, which would only escalate the tension in the Caucasus.

[saprosky]

Spanish frigate is "Juan de Borbón" not Bourbon.

Pravda boys always thinking in drinks :grababeer:

[Hoopy]

Bella stop believing the crap your media write.

[saprosky]

Oooooopss, I forgot it.

It is new frigate and we only have four. So please, take care and dont scratch it. We are still paying it. :becky:

[Neilikka]

Hoopy, first of all, why should I stop believeing our Mass Media? Is it worse than yours? I can believe my own eyes and I can count (at least to ten). I have seen 10 military ships in the Black Sea on TV/
By the way, can they be the reason why poisonous jellyfish appeared in the Mediterrainian Sea? Could they be brought on the hulls of those ships there from the Atlantic near the shores of the USA ( undeliberately, of course)?

[RiverRock]

It is strange that such a large group of NATO warships has arrived for a joint exercise with Bulgaria or Romania. Usually, only one or two warships participate in such exercises, so the attempts to substantiate the presence of the naval group with a military exercise does not withstand any criticism.

Maybe they brought extra in case Russian peacekeepers confuse NATO warships with Georgian ships and attack.

[Neilikka]

We aren't babies here. Why are you telling us scary fairy-tales before our going to sleep? Do you want us to have nightmare instead of sweet dreams? :faint:

[Hoopy]

We aren't babies here. Why are you telling us scary fairy-tales before our going to sleep? Do you want us to have nightmare instead of sweet dreams? :faint:
Was that message for Pravda?:p

[Neilikka]

Pravda= the truth (in Russian):reading:

[RiverRock]

Pravda= the truth (in Russian):reading:

I know. How Ironic it is. When you have to name your news service "truth" you know something is up.

[Sveta's Hero]

Pravda= the truth (in Russian):reading:


Pravda = National Enquirer:becky:

[RiverRock]

Here is something better for sweet dreams.:JC_cupidgirl:

In a topic on the original LL forum, Ishkuda said those warships have tons of blankets and pampers on them. Maybe NATO is planning on helping out Russia with its population crisis.

[zoroooo]

goofy,

If you feel she writes crap..fine but just enlight us why...otherwise you post is useless and is a personal attack...lets try to do better than before.


zoroooo

[Hoopy]

Bella stop believing the crap your media write.Zorooooooooooooo you fooking Belgian waffle,that's a personal attack,what I said to Bella is not.I said her media so therefore your post is useless.

[zoroooo]

oooooooooo my head ooooooooooooo my poor english. :bounce:

[brown-raider]

for once I beleive an article bella posted.... but what will Nato say"yeah uh we are rollin in strapped to tee with some big gats for Georgia... thats street lingo by the way, I'm just practicing the way we will all be talking in America after Obama takes over.... jus chukin and jivin":becky::lol:

[1amongmany]

The Tomahawk missiles are not outfitted with nuclear warheads but they can be
Why is Russian soldiers still in Poti? This actually " escalates the tension in the Caucasus."

[Sveta's Hero]

The Tomahawk missiles are not outfitted with nuclear warheads but they can be
Why is Russian soldiers still in Poti? This actually " escalates the tension in the Caucasus."


Who knows? But it is a violation of the cease-fire agreement to which they signed.

[whynotme]

Interesting view on last events,,,
in few words ,,,, it was planned to create place for former attack of Iran.
In the case of attack, Iran promised to recover Ormuzskiy spilling, halting the export of oil. Main user of it is Europe and China, so this countries will have problems in economic and this time USA economic will have period for stabilisation of $,,, it will help McCain to win elections...

Бомбить нельзя отменить
Предупреждение: Данная статья является аналитической и не базируется на закрытых источниках информации. Недостающие факты выведены аналитическим путём и обозначены курсивом.


Мы живём в сложное время, напряжение экономики и политики на абсолютном пределе, уже грохочут пушки и падают бомбы, уже пылают финансовые войны и банкротства. Только что закончился (?) конфликт в Южной Осетии. Но что-то не сходится, постоянно вылезают какие-то факты, которые разрывают информационную ткань, которую ткут СМИ всего мира.

Начнём рассматривать ситуацию с того момента когда грузинская армия бросив технику бежала от Цхинвала и Гори. Что бросилось в глаза, прежде всего, когда показывалась подбитая и захваченная грузинская техника и оружие, то где-то на границе сознания бродил один вопрос, неужели эти железки стоят почти миллиард долларов? Которые Грузия потратила в последнее время. Все, что было показано по ТВ и в Интернете тянет на несколько сот миллионов долларов, а примерно половину не видать. Нет, я понимаю, грузины не лучше нас, и коррупция у них тоже есть, но скорее всего, Грузия получала технику оплаченную США, а не деньги. Тогда где же деньги? Кое-что стало проясняться после того как была показана уничтоженная нашими войсками под Тбилиси американская модульная РЛС, оснащённая новейшим оборудованием не только для локации, но и для дальнего привода воздушных объектов. Это действительно очень дорогой и очень секретный комплекс, он может не только обнаруживать цели, но и осуществлять наведение и управление своей авиацией по зашифрованным каналам связи. Это своего рода наземный «АВАКС».

[whynotme]

А теперь снова смотрим новости, 19 августа российские войска задерживают 22 вооруженных грузинских военнослужащих, которые как выяснилось, везли из порта Поти некое электронное устройство(ва) к границам Абхазии. Буквально через несколько часов Кондолиза Райс требует от российских военных немедленно вернуть некое радиооборудование являющееся собственностью Пентагона. Спустя несколько часов, а именно рано утром 20 августа группа российской бронетехники и 100 солдат входит на территорию порта Поти и проводят досмотр неких складских помещений. Вечером 20 августа по новостным лентам проходит новость о том, что США срочно перебрасывает военно-транспортным самолётом с военной базы в Германии некое оружие для грузинской армии....

Вам не смешно? Какое оружие? Какая-такая срочность? Россия отводит войска, с кем воевать? Кто будет воевать? Деморализованные ополченцы? Ага, только вот отдышатся от быстрого бега. Столько лет не торопясь вооружали к чему-то готовились, даже допустим к войне за Осетию и Абхазию. Американцы были настолько добры, что не спрашивали денег за поставляемую технику. Ага, американцы и денег не считали. Как объяснить американским налогоплательщикам, что деньги пошли на «освобождение» какой-то Осетии, которую 99,99% американцев и на карте не найдут, а у самих экономический коллапс на носу. Но чего уж там о «пустяках», продолжим складывать факты.

Сразу после того, как российская армия отбросила грузинские войска от Цхинвала, от Гори, от Поти, от Сенаки и фактически разделила территорию Грузии пополам, в США случилась форменная истерика, главный её лейтмотив «Немедленно выведите войска с территории Грузии, а не то мы вас...». Мы отвели войска на позиции зоны миротворцев и истерика как по мановению волшебной палочки прекратилась. Ещё один интересный факт, он касается «гуманитарной» помощи. А многие ли обратили внимание, на тот факт, что упакована она была в контейнеры, в которые точно входит та самая разбомбленная американская модульная РЛС? На такой пустяк как металлические крепёжные системы для большого веса. Наши военные посетовали, что никому, ни одному журналисту не показали эту «гуманитарную» помощь. А ведь какой пропагандистский повод, ан нет, молчок. Другой интересный фактик, в Чёрное море направляются два американских плавучих госпиталя «Мерси» и «Комфорт» .... Водоизмещением в 69000 тонн, на более чем 4000 койко-мест каждый. Правда Турция не даёт разрешения на проход через Босфор, но ещё не вечер. Грузины драпали так, что обгоняли наши пули, их медицинская инфраструктура не пострадала, ориентировочно сотня, вряд ли две раненых, справиться с таким количеством своими силами не проблема. В эти плавучие госпитали можно уложить всех здоровых солдат грузинской армии. Зачем? Деньги девать некуда? Дальше ещё смешней, наши войска опубликовали список вложения одного из контейнеров в Поти. Наши СМИ и военные громко потешались, мол туалетная бумага и парфюмерия нужны были грузинам когда они от нас драпали. Поупражнялись в остроумии, но не проанализировали этот факт. А если бы взяли типовой контракт военнослужащего США, то увидели, что эти предметы входят в стандартный набор американского военнослужащего и гарантируются контрактом. У грузинских войск такого контракта нет, ну не нашли туалетной бумаги и косметики в Гори, тогда вопрос, для кого лежит этот груз? Так же очень любопытен факт того, что в грузинской армии были обнаружены немецкие спецназовские винтовки G36, которые Грузии не продавались, но продавались США.

Итак, объективных фактов набралось немало, а теперь попробуем сложить из них некую не противоречивую версию, отличную от того, что вещает СМИ, но объясняющую наблюдаемые факты.

[whynotme]

Итак, Версия : «Night sting of scorpio»

Группа грузинских военных, на 5-ти хаммерах выдвинулась в сторону Абхазии имея на борту помимо стрелкового вооружения некие устройства являющиесярадиомаяками дальнего привода и системой локальных координат. Это сложное электронное радиоустройство, предназначенное для создания защищённой системы радионавигации в условиях РЭБ (Радио Электронной Борьбы) и радиомолчания воздушного судна. Радиомаяк посылает радиосигналы на секретной частоте и с т.н. шумоподобным сигналом с распределённым спектром. Этот радиомаяк имеет приёмник GPS причём не тот гражданский, который даёт большую погрешность, а военный с секретным дополнительным дешифратором, который повышает точность позиционирования до десятков сантиметров. Будучи жестко установленными на поверхности и получив свои координаты от GPS, они могут переизлучать свои координаты на другой секретной частоте, образуя локальную, высокоточную координатную сеть. Зачем это делается? Дело в том, что система GPS вполне уязвима в условиях РЭБ, существует методика, с помощью которой можно модифицировав и усилив сигнал сбить систему позиционирования воздушного судна или крылатой ракеты. Если РЭБ ведёт наземная станция большой мощности, то она в состояние нарушить позиционирование в радиусе сотни километров и более. Такие системы приводят к тому, что крылатая ракета улетает «не туда», что наблюдали во время атаки на Ирак в 2003 году. Для того, чтобы такое не повторялось, создаётся локальная система координат, которая в предвоенное время точно устанавливается, привязывается и далее является системой позиционирования для которой у противника нет РЭБ. Радиомаяки используются и для формирования точного воздушного коридора, когда самолёт «идёт по компьютеру» строго соблюдая маршрут и временной режим с точностью до секунд. Это очень важно т.к. позволяет реализовывать сложно согласованные мероприятия по прикрытию малозаметных воздушных отметок с помощью разного рода уголковых отражателей, выстреливаемых с земли и заглушающими уровень сигнала от малозаметной отметки в заданном секторе радиолокационного контроля. Таким образом, российские войска, поняв, что за оборудование попало им в руки и допросив пленных, выяснили откуда у них радиомаяки американских ВВС. Естественно тогда и был организован утром 20 августа рейд бронетехники в порт Поти, для обнаружения аналогичных устройств, разбираясь с грузами, военные обнаружили тот самый пресловутый с туалетной бумагой, о чём и сообщили 21-го на пресс конференции. Потеряв завезённые ранее в Грузию радиомаяки, США 20 августа вечером, военно-транспортным самолётом, срочно доставили новые, с базы Рамштайн в Германии. По-видимому, уже 21 августа они были установлены и активированы. Завезенная ранее, под видом «гуманитарной» помощи, модульная РЛС к 22 августа запущена. Полностью готовы к выдвижению два плавучих госпиталя. Установка радиомаяковпозволяет создать систему воздушных коридоров, по которой могут проследовать через Грузию и Азербайджан с выходом на Каспийское море бомбардировщики Б-2 с последующим ударом по территории Ирана. Дело в том, что северное направление наиболее уязвимо у Ирана, основные силы ПВО расположены с востока, юга и запада. Однако, согласно заключённым межгосударственным соглашениям, между Россией и Ираном, поставки и разворачивание комплексов С-300 должны быть завершены до конца 2008 года. При этом первая партия, по-видимому, будет развёрнута уже в сентябре и преимущественно на северном направлении. Таким образом, окно возможностей безнаказанного «удара в спину» закроется в сентябре. Олимпийские Игры завершаются 24 августа, соответственно окно возможностей для США имеет ширину в 1,5 - 2 недели с постоянным его сужением, максимум до октября 2008г..

Соответственно плавучие госпитали и склады туалетной бумаги и прочих грузов, включая винтовки G36, являются элементами системы тыла армии США на северном направлении против Ирана. По-видимому, территория Азербайджана и/или Армении может стать плацдармом диверсионных подразделений американских коммандос, которые небольшими группами могут сконцентрироваться на границе с Ираном.

Иран в свою очередь, тоже делает недвусмысленные намёки о готовности к жесткому ответу, так 17 августа он заявляет о запуске искусственного спутника, демонстрируя при этом ракетоноситель с обводами более характерным для старой китайской баллистической ракеты DF-5 ("Дунфэн-5") нежели гражданского ракетоносителя.

Таким образом, согласно изложенной версии, события в Грузии были операцией прикрытия, обеспечивающей подготовку к нанесению удара по Ирану в интервале конец августа, начало сентября 2008 года. Однако, вместо небольших провокаций и напряженности в Южной Осетии и Абхазии, которые начались 1 августа с пулемётных и миномётных обстрелов с грузинской стороны. Руководство Грузии, возможно с подачи Вашингтона, решило усилить воздействие, повысив обоснование увеличения поставки военных грузов и похода плавучих госпиталей поближе к Ирану, что и обусловило эскалацию вокруг Цхинвала с 8 августа 2008 года. Но не рассчитало и «пережало», что вызвало резкую и решительную реакцию Росси, что в свою очередь серьёзно ударило по планам подготовки США к военной операции против Ирана, поставив их под угрозу срыва, прежде всего из-за вскрытия созданной военной инфраструктуры и возможности перегруппировки части сил ПВО Ираном.

Но не всё так просто, удар, в настоящих условиях, по Ирану крайне опасен для США, равно как и не удар, т.к. это ставит под серьёзную угрозу Израиль, который является единственным надёжным союзником США на Ближнем востоке. Иран, продолжая развивать свои ядерные возможности и средства доставки, но имея надёжную ПВО, станет очень скоро недоступным для силового давления, т.к. будет в состояние нанести неприемлемый ущерб как Израилю, так и США, становясь при этом региональным лидером мусульманских стран, что серьёзно ущемляет интересы США в регионе.

[whynotme]

Но для США в нанесении удара есть и бонусы, в случае нападения, Иран обещал перекрыть Ормузский пролив, прекратив экспорт нефти, как своей, так и других прилегающих стран. Так как основным потребителем из этого региона является Европа и Китай, то сокращение поставок нефти приводит с одной стороны к проблеме в экономике стран импортёров, что способствует перетеканию капиталов из валюты этих стран в валюты других, преимущественно в доллары США и ценные бумаги, номинированные в них. Всё это даст возможность стабилизировать экономическую ситуацию в США на несколько месяцев. Учитывая предстоящие в ноябре 2008 года в США президентские выборы этого вполне достаточно, для того чтобы нация сплотившаяся вокруг республиканцев выбрала новым президентом США Джона МакКейна, а не Барака Обаму. Но сплочения просто так быть не может, сплачиваются вокруг «хороших парней» а не агрессора. Здесь плавно выходим на очень важный момент. Формальный повод.

Начать войну просто так, послав телеграмму «Иду на Вы!» сейчас не получится, 20-й век научил, что войны зачастую начинаются с провокации. Для такой войны нужна очень серьёзная провокация или причины. Провокация может быть прямой «террористический» акт против США следы от которого ведут к объекту агрессии. Но для разыгрывания такого сценария не хватает времени. Но может быть и косвенная провокация. Например, поражение гражданского самолёта Израиля «иранской» ракетой, войска США, проводящие «учения» в этом регионе представят некие документальные данные, что ракета была с территории Ирана. Это создаёт предпосылки для нанесения «удара возмездия» по иранской территории силами ВВС Израиля. Немедленно следует резкий ответ Ирана, и тут вмешиваются США, «случайно» проводя учения возле Ирана. Но нанеся первый разоружающий удар с севера, а затем методично бомбя территорию. Хотя и не исключён полностью вариант «договорной войны». Дело в том, что при определённых параметрах бомбардировок выиграют все стороны конфликта. США получат обоснованные основания для «затягивания гаек», Иран получает венец мученика, но фактического победителя и все легальные основания для вхождения в ядерный клуб. Проигрывает Европа и Китай, а также мирные граждане, жизни которых будут брошены на алтарь «великой шахматной доски».

Но абсолютно не факт, что события будут развиваться именно так, возможны и другие варианты, но концептуально их два типа. Прямая и косвенная провокация.

Но любое решение задачи аналитическими методами необходимо проверять через перекрестные условия. В качестве такового предлагается классический случай реализации инсайда. Совершенно очевидно, что о планах военной операции знает достаточно широкий круг лиц входящих в государственную и финансово-экономическую элиту. Зная о предстоящем событии и имея некие активы, они естественно подстрахуются от возможных личных потерь, а ещё постараются на этом заработать. Следовательно, перед началом военной кампании должно иметь место некое явление на финансовых и товарных рынках, которое инициируют крупные игроки и которое идёт против рынка. Если посмотреть на рынок золота за последние две недели, то совершенно очевидно, что многие крупнейшие игроки выходят из «коротких» позиций по золоту и встают в «длинные». Это происходит тогда, когда ожидается значительный рост цены актива. И что же мы видим, «бумажное» золото (расписки) дешевеет, а физическое просто исчезло. Даже монетный двор США прекратил чеканить золотые монеты из-за отсутствия физического золота. Казалось бы, раз цена на золото падает, значит на него низкий спрос, это азы рынка. Но то, что наблюдается в последние дни прямо противоположно, золото дешевеет, но найти его очень трудно. Да, конечно есть «бумажное» золото и есть физическое, но тогда получается, что они никак не соотносятся и цена физического золота значительно выше, значит, его кто-то скупает, избавляясь от «бумажного». Есть очень старое и надёжное правило, во время войн, а особенно перед ними, резко дорожает золото. Это древнейший способ сохранить капитал в условиях военных невзгод. Но тут не только военные проблемы, США поразил сильнейший экономический кризис, который, судя по всему, затмит по своей силе знаменитую Великую депрессию 30-х годов 20-го века. Как удержать социальную ситуацию в стране в контролируемых рамках, в таких условиях, без жестких полицейских мер, совершенно непонятно. Но для введения жестких полицейских мер нужны серьёзные основания, в этом случае война вполне может служить инструментом консолидации нации с одной стороны, а с другой объяснением экономического краха. Не важно, как это на самом деле, важно как это, просто, объяснит телевизор. Главное правильно «поджечь свой рейхстаг».

Но вернемся к заглавию статьи «Бомбить нельзя отменить!» Смысл предложения меняется на противоположный только с помощью одной запятой, куда её поставит Вашингтон? Причём, что добавляет трагизма этому выбору, так это то, что куда не поставь запятую, мир ожидают колоссальные потрясения, в одном случае будут падать бомбы, в другом доллары. Мы стоим на их пороге.

Когда статья уже была написана, 23 августа пришли новые сообщения в подтверждение выдвинутой версии. Так 22 августа через пролив Босфор проследовал эсминец ВМС США "Макфол" с грузом «гуманитарной» помощи для Грузии. Кроме того, как ожидается, в ближайшие дни к эсминцу присоединятся сторожевой катер "Даллас" и командный корабль 6-го флота США "Маунт Уитни", которые также везут «гуманитарную» помощь, а также ожидается прибытие американского фрегата "Тейлор" и ещё двух боевых кораблей. Зачем? Гуманитарную помощь возить эсминцами и фрегатами? А может сразу авианосец подогнать с палубной «гуманитарной» помощью? Американский военный кулак стремительно продолжает сжиматься, видимо атака уже неотвратима. А Грузия? Грузия? Ах, да, там уже запущен механизм рокировки «Безумного Саака» на «чугунную Нино», кто-то должен ответить за провал порученного хозяином дела, тут уже не галстук есть, а использовать его иным способом...

Игорь Бощенко, worldcrisis.ru

[Rileymat]

Привет Белла! Есть две стороны к каждой истории. Предварительно, на старых LL Форумах Вы процитировала некоторые Западные источники для статей, которые Вы написала. Нет никакого доступа иностранных источников для Вас теперь в России?
Теперь, у г. Путина есть контроль всех СМИ в России, и российские люди слышат только одну сторону истории--сторона г. Путин хочет, чтобы они услышали. Какое доказательство у Вас, что американские военные корабли отправляет вооружения для грузин? Слово Путина? Я думаю, что ситуация в России теперь походит на ситуацию газет Правды и Известия в течение старого советского режима.

[fbibob]

Is it logical to think a military ship would unload all of its armaments before delivering supplies? Of course the ships are still armed.

[vitashenka]

Нет никакого доступа иностранных источников для Вас теперь в России?


У русских есть доступ к любым источникам и западным и не западным

[kentuckydan]

Pravda= the truth (in Russian):reading:

Eta pravda, pravda eezvestia, et nee pravda eezvestia pravda

I do believe that is a Russian saying??

[beezneesman]

Pravda= the truth (in Russian):reading:

And there was me thinking that Russians don't do irony

[beezneesman]

Maybe I didn't get the memo. When exactly did the Black Sea become a Russian lake? :rolleyes:

[dzerassa]

Maybe I didn't get the memo. When exactly did the Black Sea become a Russian lake? :rolleyes:

u just didn't get the meno which is - black sea won't become nato lake :)

[beezneesman]

u just didn't get the meno which is - black sea won't become nato lake :)

Turkey, Bulgaria and Romania are NATO members and all have a Black Sea coastline. So NATO ships have as much right to be in the Black Sea as Russian ones darling ;-)

By the way why are Russian troops still in Poti (in violation of the agreement signed by your government)?

[dzerassa]

By the way why are Russian troops still in Poti (in violation of the agreement signed by your government)?

not to let millitary georgians in those areas from where ossetian is a trgaet again and this is not in violation of the agreemnt.

[Hoopy]

yes it is,the agreement was they would pull back to the pre-conflict positions.

[dzerassa]

yes it is,the agreement was they would pull back to the pre-conflict positions.

then why 1000 georgian soldiers didn't return to uraq yet

[beezneesman]

then why 1000 georgian soldiers didn't return to uraq yet

That wasn't part of the agreement my dear - and you know it ;-)

I have a feeling those 1000 soldiers will be needed for clearing up the mess made by Putin throwing his toys out of the pram.

[dzerassa]

That wasn't part of the agreement my dear - and you know it ;-)

I have a feeling those 1000 soldiers will be needed for clearing up the mess made by Putin throwing his toys out of the pram.

of course it was

there is a clause that all troops have to go to the places they were before the war started

[beezneesman]

of course it was

there is a clause that all troops have to go to the places they were before the war started

I assume that as the troops in question are Georgian they can reasonably claim to have been in Georgia at some point prior to the war starting (unlike the Russians in Poti)

;-)

[dzerassa]

I assume that as the troops in question are Georgian they can reasonably claim to have been in Georgia at some point prior to the war starting (unlike the Russians in Poti)

;-)

i love english humour. very funny though has nothing to do with reality :)

[dzerassa]

(unlike the Russians in Poti)

;-)

poti is an area which was zone of responsibility of georgian peacekeepers. now that georgia attacked south ossetia and its pecekeepers were participating in this, they can't be hold as peacekeepers there. but someone has to do it. now it's russia, i think temporarily untill some other joint forces assigned there (not georgian).

[beezneesman]

poti is an area which was zone of responsibility of georgian peacekeepers. now that georgia attacked south ossetia and its pecekeepers were participating in this, they can't be hold as peacekeepers there. but someone has to do it. now it's russia, i think temporarily untill some other joint forces assigned there (not georgian).

I see you're still the propaganda ministry's star student ;-)

Do you really think anyone outside the Soviet Union buys this peacekeeper BS? :-)

[kentuckydan]

It's about OIL (boy it's fun to be able to use that phrase)

Poti is an Oil Port for the only pipeline access to Central Asian Oil that Russia did not
control, until it decided to occupy Georgia

[dzerassa]

I
Do you really think anyone outside the Soviet Union buys this peacekeeper BS? :-)

can u imagine that we still sell it well, beeznezzman :)

[dzerassa]

It's about OIL (boy it's fun to be able to use that phrase)



as u say, since americans got involved in oil-related actions allover the word so many times. we have to trust the experienced ones :)

[kentuckydan]

Russia 'to Absorb' South Ossetia (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1837456,00.html)

Russia and South Ossetia plan to sign an agreement on the placement of Russian military bases in South Ossetia, the province's deputy parliamentary speaker Tarzan Kokoiti said. How many bases that involves will become clear on Sept. 2, when the document is set to be signed, he said.

He said South Ossetians have the right to reunite with North Ossetia, which is part of Russia.

"Soon there will be no North or South Ossetia — there will be a united Alania as part of Russia," Kokoiti said, using another name for Ossetia.

"We will live in one united Russian state,"
he said

So much for the Myth of Osetian Independence

[dzerassa]

Russia 'to Absorb' South Ossetia (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1837456,00.html)

Russia and South Ossetia plan to sign an agreement on the placement of Russian military bases in South Ossetia, the province's deputy parliamentary speaker Tarzan Kokoiti said. How many bases that involves will become clear on Sept. 2, when the document is set to be signed, he said.

He said South Ossetians have the right to reunite with North Ossetia, which is part of Russia.

"Soon there will be no North or South Ossetia — there will be a united Alania as part of Russia," Kokoiti said, using another name for Ossetia.

"We will live in one united Russian state,"
he said

So much for the Myth of Osetian Independence

it was a dream of two parts of ossetia to unite. but this is not going to be soon. south ossetia will be independent, north ossetia - part of russia.

[dzerassa]

and yes, another name for ossetia is alania.

we r south ossetians r alanians, not georgians :)

[kentuckydan]

it was a dream of two parts of ossetia to unite. but this is not going to be soon. south ossetia will be independent, north ossetia - part of russia.

Guess again and read again there will be no South Osetia, just another part of Russia
there is a price for everything

The Market Will Punish Putinism (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122039907604792875.html?mod=googlenews_wsj)

The irony of the story, and the tragedy, is that Mr. Putin needs little assistance from the U.S. and its trans-Atlantic allies to destroy Russia's own standing in the international political and economic order.

The rout in Russian stock markets actually began before the invasion of Georgia, prompted by Mr. Putin's rumblings of despotic displeasure in late July. The shares of Mechel, one of Russia's leading mining and metals companies, plunged 38% on the New York Stock Exchange after Russia's prime minister publicly accused the company of selling raw materials to foreigners at lower prices than those charged domestically. Perhaps it was Mr. Putin's ominous advice (widely viewed as a sinister threat) to Mechel's owner and director, who was hospitalized at the time -- "I think Igor Vladimirovich should get better as quick as possible, otherwise we'll have to send him a doctor" -- that chilled investor sentiment, wiping out $6 billion in shareholder value in one day.

Since the attack on Georgia began in early August, the decline in Russian financial markets has accelerated sharply. The benchmark RTS Index of leading Russian stocks has slumped to its lowest level in two years. The ruble has registered its biggest monthly decline against the U.S. dollar in more than nine years as foreign investors rush to retrieve their capital -- some $25 billion in the last three weeks, according to French investment bank BNP Paribas. The amount of debt raised by Russian companies in August has fallen 87% from July levels. The issuance of new equity has come to a virtual halt -- a mere $3 million was raised in August compared to $933 million in July.

[kentuckydan]

It is part of the continuing pattern for Russia -- forever trying to have it both ways with "private" companies in cahoots with the Kremlin, entrepreneurial ambition subject to Big Brother's approval, and capitalism without democracy. It's a pattern that has consistently led Russia to blame outsiders for woes incurred as the result of its inherent dissonance, and to petulantly abandon earlier aspirations for global integration.

And it has always led to the financial abyss. Even now, the outlines of the old command-style economic blueprint are emerging as Mr. Putin promotes his 12-year development plan for the country. The foreign capital required to fund it is disappearing by the minute, however, which means the plan must be altered. Expect the nastiness to ratchet upwards as Mr. Putin wields his stick against his purported enemies. On Friday, he threatened to cut supplies to Europe of "oil, gas, petroleum chemicals, timber, metals, fertilizers" should it align with the U.S. in confronting Russian aggression against bordering nations. In Moscow, reports are circulating that Lukoil executives have been notified by the Kremlin to be prepared to restrict oil deliveries to Poland and Germany through the Druzhba pipeline. (In Russian, druzhba means "friendship" -- a perfect tribute to Orwellian doublespeak.)

What Mr. Putin has yet to learn is that capital does not respond well to extortion. Global investors are not impressed by economic threats to cut off supplies to vital customers. Indeed, they abhor the elevated "country risk" associated with political adventurism.

[dzerassa]

truly, i understand nothing in finance things.

[beezneesman]

It is part of the continuing pattern for Russia -- forever trying to have it both ways with "private" companies in cahoots with the Kremlin, entrepreneurial ambition subject to Big Brother's approval, and capitalism without democracy. It's a pattern that has consistently led Russia to blame outsiders for woes incurred as the result of its inherent dissonance, and to petulantly abandon earlier aspirations for global integration.

And it has always led to the financial abyss. Even now, the outlines of the old command-style economic blueprint are emerging as Mr. Putin promotes his 12-year development plan for the country. The foreign capital required to fund it is disappearing by the minute, however, which means the plan must be altered. Expect the nastiness to ratchet upwards as Mr. Putin wields his stick against his purported enemies. On Friday, he threatened to cut supplies to Europe of "oil, gas, petroleum chemicals, timber, metals, fertilizers" should it align with the U.S. in confronting Russian aggression against bordering nations. In Moscow, reports are circulating that Lukoil executives have been notified by the Kremlin to be prepared to restrict oil deliveries to Poland and Germany through the Druzhba pipeline. (In Russian, druzhba means "friendship" -- a perfect tribute to Orwellian doublespeak.)

What Mr. Putin has yet to learn is that capital does not respond well to extortion. Global investors are not impressed by economic threats to cut off supplies to vital customers. Indeed, they abhor the elevated "country risk" associated with political adventurism.

Good post Dan

I get the impression that Putin truly has not grasped the essential truth that Russia needs European money as much as Europe needs Russian gas!!!

Even the Soviet Union never cut off supplies (or even threatened to) during the Cold War. The guy is crazy.

The longer his posturing continues the more likely it is that European countries will look at developing alternative energy sources and increasing diversity of supply.

[dzerassa]

Good post Dan

I get the impression that Putin truly has not grasped the essential truth that Russia needs European money as much as Europe needs Russian gas!!!

Even the Soviet Union never cut off supplies (or even threatened to) during the Cold War. The guy is crazy.

The longer his posturing continues the more likely it is that European countries will look at developing alternative energy sources and increasing diversity of supply.

Sorry to interfre with your nice dialogue guys, but doesn't europe need russia as a market for its goods? i have a feeling u consider russia as only supplier of gas. What about big russian market for german cars for example? we can buy from other countries if u r not interested in russian market. what about american food? we can but from other countries and it would be wise i think. so think a bit if u want to have russia as market.

[kentuckydan]

I have been trying without sucess so far to find and article that said if Oil Prices got down to the 80 to 90 dollars a barrel range Russia would have severe financial difficulties

It dropped to $106 yesterday.

In one fell swoop Putin might end up having wiped out all the tremdous ecomomic gains made by Russia since the Financial crisis of '98.

But the elite will not suffer just the Russian People

[beezneesman]

Sorry to interfre with your nice dialogue guys, but doesn't europe need russia as a market for its goods? i have a feeling u consider russia as only supplier of gas. What about big russian market for german cars for example? we can buy from other countries if u r not interested in russian market. what about american food? we can but from other countries and it would be wise i think. so think a bit if u want to have russia as market.

I am sure the Chinese and/or Indian markets will soak up any excess supply

[beezneesman]

I think that maybe this thread is deviating a bit far from its original subject

[kentuckydan]

Sorry to interfre with your nice dialogue guys, but doesn't europe need russia as a market for its goods? i have a feeling u consider russia as only supplier of gas. What about big russian market for german cars for example? we can buy from other countries if u r not interested in russian market. what about american food? we can but from other countries and it would be wise i think. so think a bit if u want to have russia as market.

Russia is a market only as long as it can pay for imports and the elite have been spending the rewards of High Oil prices tapping Old fields and not developing new ones.

That was the major conflict with BP and why they forced out the CEO, they wanted to mazimise short term profits instead of long term investments in exploration.

From Pravda ;)

Russian economy to experience ten most difficult years (http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/25-06-2008/105590-russian_economy-0)

Russia’s Finance Minister Aleksei Kudrin stated at a recent press conference in Moscow that the upcoming ten years would be quite a difficult period for the national economy. The reduction of crude output and the unstable pension system will create serious problems in the Russian economy, the minister said.


Myself I would prefer Russia had a stable economy withdraw from Georgia and things settle down. But right now it does not seem likely

So Europe will sell to China I guess

[dzerassa]

I am sure the Chinese and/or Indian markets will soak up any excess supply

don't know how indian but china seems to flood with its products all europe, u think they need supply from elsewhere?

[kentuckydan]

Russia's oil boom may be running on emptyhtml (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/117/story/49962.html)

MOSCOW — The Russian oil boom, which has produced a gusher of cash, political power and an opulent elite — and has helped fuel the country's renewed assertiveness in Georgia and elsewhere — is on shakier ground than officials in Moscow would like to admit.

Most of the oil produced after the country's 1998 financial collapse has come from drilling and re-drilling old Soviet oil fields with more advanced equipment — squeezing more black gold out of the same ground — and efforts to develop new fields have been slow or non-existent.

That strategy is potentially disastrous, said Valery Kryukov, who researches oil companies in western Siberia for a government-funded think tank

The concerns about Russia's oil industry also raise questions about the health of the nation's economy, which has enjoyed stratospheric growth thanks to high oil prices since the economic crisis a decade ago, according to interviews with a dozen economists and analysts.

Higher oil and gas prices could further enrich and embolden resurgent Russia, but if production declines sharply, a hungry bear could prove to be even more troublesome than a prosperous one is.

That's a serious matter for a country where, by some estimates, the oil sector funded about a third of the national budget last year, and where by all accounts industrial, technological and agricultural businesses lag far behind. Russia's other major revenue source is natural gas, in which Russia leads the world; oil and gas sales are mainly responsible for the country's $592 billion in gold and foreign exchange reserves.

Valery Tsvetkov, a deputy of the institute of market problems at the state-funded Academy of Sciences, laid out an array of statistics showing what's wrong with Russia's oil industry.

Among them: In 1990, some 17.3 million feet of new wells were drilled looking for new reserves in the former Soviet Union, almost all of them in what's now the Russian Federation. In 2007, about 3.9 million feet were drilled.

"Why? Because today those who work in the oil industry find it easier to take the cream off the existing fields than to find new fields," Tsvetkov said. When he and others send research papers to the government about potential economic problems, he said: "No one reads them."

"The Russian government has few people with the mentality of statesmen," Tsvetkov said. "Today, the aim of many people is to become rich at the expense of the state."

Indeed, there are few signs of concern in the nation's capital, a caviar wonderland for the Learjet crowd. Moscow has more billionaires than any other city in the world — 74 according to Forbes magazine. Lest the millionaires feel left out, there's an annual Millionaire Fair where a big spender can buy a $1 million set of diamond-encrusted rims for his Mercedes or BMW.

Even optimists, however, are worried about the economy's dependence on oil revenues during a time when reserves are ebbing.

[dzerassa]

nstead of long term investments in exploration.

From Pravda ;)

Russian economy to experience ten most difficult years (http://english.pravda.ru/russia/economics/25-06-2008/105590-russian_economy-0)

Russia’s Finance Minister Aleksei Kudrin stated at a recent press conference in Moscow that the upcoming ten years would be quite a difficult period for the national economy. The reduction of crude output and the unstable pension system will create serious problems in the Russian economy, the minister said.


Myself I would prefer Russia had a stable economy withdraw from Georgia and things settle down. But right now it does not seem likely

So Europe will sell to China I guess

dan, did u quoate Pravda??? u r improving :)

[kentuckydan]

When asked about the current flattening of production numbers, and the extent to which Russia's economy is tied to oil, Nesterov's tone changed.

"Every Russian who thinks is worried about this. Unfortunately, there are no signs this will change," Nesterov said. "These days, the economy is dependent on natural-resource exports, which is just a temporary bonanza. These resources sooner or later will be depleted."

A Western diplomat in Moscow said drilling in old fields makes sense from the perspective of Russia's ruling elite, who control energy companies only as long as they remain in power.

"If you're running Gazprom (a Russian natural-gas producer) but you don't really own it, then your interest is maximizing short-term profits, not long-term development," said the Western diplomat, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the delicacy of the subject. "If you look at most of the Russian companies — the energy companies — that's precisely what's happened. They have focused on profits or dividends and less so on long term development and replacing reserves."

[dzerassa]

So Europe will sell to China I guess

r u serious? who else apart from russians will eat those chicken legs from mutant chickens? :)

germany will suplly its cars to china? well well, let's see :)

[dzerassa]

The guy is crazy.

.

is it something personal that u don't like our prime-minister :)

[beezneesman]

r u serious? who else apart from russians will eat those chicken legs from mutant chickens? :)

germany will suplly its cars to china? well well, let's see :)

Like you said Nonna you're not an expert an economics. Neither am I.

I have not been to China but I have been to India many times and I am aware of how similar the increasing demand for certain goods and commodities is in those countries.

Certainly in India there is huge demand for food products and European consumer goods such as Mercedes cars. India alone has a population around 10 times greater than that of the Russian Federation.

[beezneesman]

It's worth remembering people that the Soviet Union got a temporary 'lift' from high oil prices following the Arab Israeli War in 1973. It was only a temporary economic reprieve that kept it going for a few years more than it would otherwise have survived.

And Russia is still drilling the same 'clapped-out' old oilfields today!!!!!

Plus ca change c'est la meme chose.

[beezneesman]

is it something personal that u don't like our prime-minister :)

How silly of me we should all learn to love Stalinist autocrats :-)

[dzerassa]

Like you said Nonna you're not an expert an economics. Neither am I.

I have not been to China but I have been to India many times and I am aware of how similar the increasing demand for certain goods and commodities is in those countries.

Certainly in India there is huge demand for food products and European consumer goods such as Mercedes cars. India alone has a population around 10 times greater than that of the Russian Federation.

we will charge germans a lot for using our territory for transporting their car to india

[dzerassa]

How silly of me we should all learn to love Stalinist autocrats :-)

u all guys r on the right way, first start with russian girls and then see where u go :)

[beezneesman]

we will charge germans a lot for using our territory for transporting their car to india


I don't think Mercedes factories in South Africa or VW factories in Brazil or BMW factories in the USA will need to move their product via Russia!

[dzerassa]

I don't think Mercedes factories in South Africa or VW factories in Brazil or BMW factories in the USA will need to move their product via Russia!

ok, i am convinced. i just don't understand one thing, does germany supply its cars now in those countries? why not? is it choice either/or? they don't want to cover all posiible markets including russia? in addition to india and china?

[beezneesman]

ok, i am convinced. i just don't understand one thing, does germany supply its cars now in those countries? why not? is it choice either/or? they don't want to cover all posiible markets including russia? in addition to india and china?

i am sure they would be delighted to sell all over

[dzerassa]

i am sure they would be delighted to sell all over

so i am right then :)

[whynotme]

Chineses will be happy to occupy russian car market ,,, all they need - resources ,,,
Is Europe have a lot of them? ,,, continue to amuse yourself with illusions,,, :yo:

[RiverRock]

China will take all the resources it needs from Russia. Russia wouldn't stand a chance. China could take a couple of nuclear bombs and still have a billion people.

[dzerassa]

China will take all the resources it needs from Russia. Russia wouldn't stand a chance. China could take a couple of nuclear bombs and still have a billion people.

"couple of neclear bombs"... reminds me something from recent world history

[beezneesman]

I thought that threads were supposed to be continued in the language that they were started in.

[whynotme]

China will take all the resources it needs from Russia. Russia wouldn't stand a chance. China could take a couple of nuclear bombs and still have a billion people.

Do you understand yourself what nonsense did u write? :eek:

[dzerassa]

Do you understand yourself what nonsense did u write? :eek:

i think he was joking. he knows that what he said about china and russia is hypotetical while usa is really flooded by immigrants from china and chinese business feels in usa like at home:)

[kentuckydan]

Originally Posted by RiverRock
China will take all the resources it needs from Russia. Russia wouldn't stand a chance. China could take a couple of nuclear bombs and still have a billion people.Do you understand yourself what nonsense did u write? :eek:



I don't think it nonsense, not any time soon, but before this century is over China will annex or at least try to annex Siberia

It will probably offer to share with OPEC and will guarantee Europe an uniterrupted energy supply in exchange for European silence on the move,. I would expect if Russia does try to use cutting off OIl and Natural Gas to Europe at any time to influence their political postions, Europe will take China's offer

[fbibob]

Marina is from the Siberia area, and the worry of a Chinese invasion is something that they commonly live with and privately worry about. The problem with this is that the imbalance of army sizes does not leave Russia much choice. They have superior military technology, but not enough to stop an army the size of China's. Their only real military option is nuclear weapons, with the knowledge that China also has these weapons. So they either let their army be destroyed in a losing battle, or they let their country be destroyed in a nuclear weapons exchange. And if they lose their army, they cannot defend against the next invasion from China or any other country that wants a piece of their resources.

[dzerassa]

Marina is from the Siberia area, and the worry of a Chinese invasion is something that they commonly live with and privately worry about. The problem with this is that the imbalance of army sizes does not leave Russia much choice. They have superior military technology, but not enough to stop an army the size of China's. Their only real military option is nuclear weapons, with the knowledge that China also has these weapons. So they either let their army be destroyed in a losing battle, or they let their country be destroyed in a nuclear weapons exchange. And if they lose their army, they cannot defend against the next invasion from China or any other country that wants a piece of their resources.

i think the best way for russia is to be a strong country both economically and military. there is a russian saying : if u want peace prepare for war

[beezneesman]

I don't think it nonsense, not any time soon, but before this century is over China will annex or at least try to annex Siberia

It will probably offer to share with OPEC and will guarantee Europe an uniterrupted energy supply in exchange for European silence on the move,. I would expect if Russia does try to use cutting off OIl and Natural Gas to Europe at any time to influence their political postions, Europe will take China's offer

It's all very hypothetical of course but I doubt very much whether China would care what anyone in Europe said one way or the other.

[sliver]

I have not been to China but I have been to India many times and I am aware of how similar the increasing demand for certain goods and commodities is in those countries.

Certainly in India there is huge demand for food products and European consumer goods such as Mercedes cars. India alone has a population around 10 times greater than that of the Russian Federation.

i have never been to india. but my german friend (he works at german consulate) last year moved to work in russia, before he worked in mumbai consulate (india).
well, beezneesman, he doesn't think so and wouldn't agree with you ;)

[beezneesman]

i have never been to india. but my german friend (he works at german consulate) last year moved to work in russia, before he worked in mumbai consulate (india).
well, beezneesman, he doesn't think so and wouldn't agree with you ;)

Well he's entitled to his opinion and I stand by mine. I have been to Mumbai many times (last time 6 months ago) and had family connections, investments and property there so I doubt whether he is more qualified to comment on the economy of India and the behaviour of Indian consumers than I am.

[fbibob]

i think the best way for russia is to be a strong country both economically and military. there is a russian saying : if u want peace prepare for war

The real problem Russia has is declining population. This will limit their ability to have a strong military or a strong economy.

[vitashenka]

The real problem Russia has is declining population. This will limit their ability to have a strong military or a strong economy.

Dont worry, we are improoving in both directions

[beezneesman]

Dont worry, we are improoving in both directions

But is China improving more?

[vitashenka]

But is China improving more?

:becky:Chine has nothing to improove here

[kentuckydan]

i have never been to india. but my german friend (he works at german consulate) last year moved to work in russia, before he worked in mumbai consulate (india).
well, beezneesman, he doesn't think so and wouldn't agree with you ;)

The population of India is about a Billion, so I figure there is room for a large
range of opinions, Beezneesman and your friends.

[sliver]

Well he's entitled to his opinion and I stand by mine. I have been to Mumbai many times (last time 6 months ago) and had family connections, investments and property there so I doubt whether he is more qualified to comment on the economy of India and the behaviour of Indian consumers than I am.

wow, how nice.. you refuse the german diplomat in their estimate of possibilities of indian and russian consumers? :becky:

[sliver]

The population of India is about a Billion, so I figure there is room for a large
range of opinions, Beezneesman and your friends.

oh yeah, that's why european business community blocked attempts of miliband to isolate russia.. the matter is number of population :becky:
then i'm wondering, why usa economy is so attractive?.. wtf does russia do in G8? :confused: even obstructing with the answer... )))

[sliver]

The real problem Russia has is declining population. This will limit their ability to have a strong military or a strong economy.

is that only russian problem? uk solved this problem due to migrants ;)

[dzerassa]

is that only russian problem? uk solved this problem due to migrants ;)

it's funny that our european friends think of chinese occupation of russia at the moment that what is most obvious now is that europe is being slowly occupied by residents of its former colonies. Inshalla :)

[zoroooo]

it's funny that our european friends think of chinese occupation of russia at the moment that what is most obvious now is that europe is being slowly occupied by residents of its former colonies. Inshalla :)


Congo was our colony we have 40 000 of them here ...our population is 11.000.000... strange occupation...:lol:

We have 270.000 Italians same for Marocans.

We have 150.000 Turkish and Frenchies.

We have 120.000 from the Neitherlands.

From those nationalities a big number became Belgians....

Numbers are telling us that occupation is only a fantasme. That feeds ultra right groups.

But but we Belgians are thinking to invade Siberia and Alaska. We like ice cream too.;)

zorozoro in a good mood

[dzerassa]

But but we Belgians are thinking to invade Siberia and Alaska. We like ice cream too.;)

zorozoro in a good mood

it's not only ice-cream in siberia.
there r big bears, beared men drinking vodka and playin balalaika plus gypsies singin "ochi chernie". welcome :)

[dzerassa]

Dont worry, we are improoving in both directions

some with help of our american and uk friends. another way of investment into russian economy :)

[dzerassa]

Even the Soviet Union never cut off supplies (or even threatened to) during the Cold War. The guy is crazy.



when did anyone from russian officials threatened u with this? on the contrary they always say that russia will keep its obligations. it is all your own hysteria

[beezneesman]

wow, how nice.. you refuse the german diplomat in their estimate of possibilities of indian and russian consumers? :becky:

Why should I give more weight to the opinion of some anonymous German civil servant (who may or may not exist and who may or may not have been to Mumbai and who if he has probably lived a fairly insulated ex-pat life while he was there) than to my own knowledge of India?

:rolleyes:

[beezneesman]

it's funny that our european friends think of chinese occupation of russia at the moment that what is most obvious now is that europe is being slowly occupied by residents of its former colonies. Inshalla :)

This a much quoted paranoid right wing fantasy!

[beezneesman]

when did anyone from russian officials threatened u with this? on the contrary they always say that russia will keep its obligations. it is all your own hysteria

Putin has threatened it Nonna. Either he means what he says or he is confused or irrational or more worringly all three at once!

[dzerassa]

Putin has threatened it Nonna. Either he means what he says or he is confused or irrational or more worringly all three at once!

just give me a link of his interview please

[dzerassa]

This a much quoted paranoid right wing fantasy!

more than chinese in siberia?

[sliver]

Why should I give more weight to the opinion of some anonymous German civil servant (who may or may not exist and who may or may not have been to Mumbai and who if he has probably lived a fairly insulated ex-pat life while he was there) than to my own knowledge of India?

:rolleyes:

are you ok, beez?!?
he worked several years in german consulate in mumbai and now he works in russia. maybe i should doubt very much in your silly words and perhaps just you haven't been there? btw, how did you like russia?.. if you were here of course :becky:
please think before to write your empty comments, boy :yo:

[beezneesman]

are you ok, beez?!?
he worked several years in german consulate in mumbai and now he works in russia. maybe i should doubt very much in your silly words and perhaps just you haven't been there? btw, how did you like russia?.. if you were here of course :becky:
please think before to write your empty comments, boy :yo:

Yes I'm fine thanks.
I am sure your friend is a knowledgeable guy but if he thinks that demand in the Indian economy is falling and that there is little demand for European goods and services there then I think he is incorrect (on the basis of my own observations from my frequent visits and on the basis of the experience of my family 'contacts' who are Indian nationals who really do live there). If Russia (with its declining population) went down the toilet as a market for European goods and services China and India with their growing populations and rising middle classes will easily be able to take up the slack.

As for going to Russia - I have not visited yet and have not claimed to. I have been to Ukraine though.

[dzerassa]

Yes I'm fine thanks.
If Russia (with its declining population) went down the toilet as a market for European goods and services China and India with their growing populations and rising middle classes will easily be able to take up the slack.



can someone explain this "toilet" thing? i didn't understand.

really, i don't much think that americans and europeans will export their food in china and india as much as to russia. they have their own prodution while russia thanks to western advisors completely ruined its productionm that's why we buy from your countries.

[kentuckydan]

:
then i'm wondering, why usa economy is so attractive?..


Well they say a picture is worth a thousand words. Here is one of Real GDP from 1992 until now (Real GDP has inflation factored in)

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't his a 60% growth in our economy from 92 to 08??

PS the last quater growth was 3.3%

[kentuckydan]

while russia thanks to western advisors completely ruined its productionm that's why we buy from your countries.

Now that's a joke Ukraine was once called the Breadbasket of Euorpe until the Marxists decided to improve things. Russia beat us to ruining it's agricultural production,

[beezneesman]

can someone explain this "toilet" thing? i didn't understand.

really, i don't much think that americans and europeans will export their food in china and india as much as to russia. they have their own prodution while russia thanks to western advisors completely ruined its productionm that's why we buy from your countries.

Nonna one of the factors behind rising food prices here in the UK (and I imagine other European countries) is rising demand for food products especially dairy IIRC from China and India due to their growing populations and growing prosperity.

[dzerassa]

Nonna one of the factors behind rising food prices here in the UK (and I imagine other European countries) is rising demand for food products especially dairy IIRC from China and India due to their growing populations and growing prosperity.

ok guys, i am convinced. don't go to our market, maybe then it will make our government to deveop our own economy and not be just consumption market for western products especially food which is rubbish actually

[kentuckydan]

when did anyone from russian officials threatened u with this? on the contrary they always say that russia will keep its obligations. it is all your own hysteria

They didn't have to, one of the side effects of the dispute between Russia and Ukraine in 2006 was a disruption of Natural Gas to Europe.

Don't have to threaten what you have done in the past, Europe's memory functions quite well.

[dzerassa]

They didn't have to, one of the side effects of the dispute between Russia and Ukraine in 2006 was a disruption of Natural Gas to Europe.

Don't have to threaten what you have done in the past, Europe's memory functions quite well.

u mean when ukraine was stealing gas from the pipe which was going for europe?

[Voobrazheniye]

u mean when ukraine was stealing gas from the pipe which was going for europe?

Which was necessary because it was the middle of a bitterly cold winter and Russia was trying to blackmail Ukraine by cutting off its gas supply.

[beezneesman]

ok guys, i am convinced. don't go to our market, maybe then it will make our government to deveop our own economy and not be just consumption market for western products especially food which is rubbish actually

Well that may be true in relation to our much maligned British cuisine but it's rather insulting to the cuisine of our French and Italian friends ;-)

[dzerassa]

Which was necessary because it was the middle of a bitterly cold winter and Russia was trying to blackmail Ukraine by cutting off its gas supply.

ukraine is independent? prices r independent. it's just business, nothing personal

[sliver]

Yes I'm fine thanks.
I am sure your friend is a knowledgeable guy but if he thinks that demand in the Indian economy is falling and that there is little demand for European goods and services there then I think he is incorrect (on the basis of my own observations from my frequent visits and on the basis of the experience of my family 'contacts' who are Indian nationals who really do live there). If Russia (with its declining population) went down the toilet as a market for European goods and services China and India with their growing populations and rising middle classes will easily be able to take up the slack.

As for going to Russia - I have not visited yet and have not claimed to. I have been to Ukraine though.

still, i worry if you're ok ) did i ever say that indian economy is falling?!?!? growth of indian economy beats all records.. but: your statement was that russian market less attractive than indian for european cars (as the example).. and your the only argument/indicator was the number of population ))
so.. i had to ask, maybe, usa population also isn't enough for good demand? :rolleyes:

[dzerassa]

Well that may be true in relation to our much maligned British cuisine but it's rather insulting to the cuisine of our French and Italian friends ;-)

has nothing to do with cuisine :)
it's industrial production of food.
these legs from chicken mutants cost ten times less than chickens brought by peasants from villages. why should we feed someone's economy, we better develop our own agriculture, machinery, ect which wasn't bad by the way

[dzerassa]

i had to ask, maybe, usa population also isn't enough for good demand? :rolleyes:


molodets :)

[beezneesman]

still, i worry if you're ok ) did i ever say that indian economy is falling?!?!? growth of indian economy beats all records.. but: your statement was that russian market less attractive than indian for european cars (as the example).. and your the only argument/indicator was the number of population ))
so.. i had to ask, maybe, usa population also isn't enough for good demand? :rolleyes:

Sliver it's an economic fact of life that the prospering middle classes tend to like to buy high quality goods which are often imports. In India alone the prospering middle classes (which are continuing to increase in size) outnumber Russia's entire population (which is falling). Do you see where we are heading? And that is just India, not even counting China into the equation.

[beezneesman]

has nothing to do with cuisine :)
it's industrial production of food.
these legs from chicken mutants cost ten times less than chickens brought by peasants from villages. why should we feed someone's economy, we better develop our own agriculture, machinery, ect which wasn't bad by the way


Massive and exaggerated generalization there. You're talking about countries that managed to efficiently feed themselves and export food to others during times when Russians had to queue for lengthy periods of time to get whatever was available!!! ROFL

In case you hadn't noticed the Western European population is probably better nourished now than at any time in its history.

[dzerassa]

Massive and exaggerated generalization there. You're talking about countries that managed to efficiently feed themselves and export food to others during times when Russians had to queue for lengthy periods of time to get whatever was available!!! ROFL

In case you hadn't noticed the Western European population is probably better nourished now than at any time in its history.

the quality of food is bad. sorry, it's a long discussion about it. In old forum in LL Flubla made a good post on it, i also posted there, u r welcome to read my opinion there :)

[IrmaMos]

Thats really a discussion with deaf people. How is that possible to explain anything about "truth" to people, who believe that, pictures they see on TV are the truth and refuse to believe people who have relatives, friends, properties, strong personal connections with the event showen in the news. Mass media is politically corrupted, personal people's pain, fears and horrows of war are real. Did guys ever talk to any osetian in person about the event, or they only watch TV, which just (like CNN did) stop the interview if people say "smth what Russia wants to hear"

It is like women say : It is very painful if the finger has to be cut off without the painkillers,"cause it is their finger and their pain, but then guys, who learned about pain and fingers on english speaking news chanels, say : "bullsht, thats the work of ur communist Putins' propaganda, it doesnt bring any pain at all , our news chanels says so, we never tried ourselves, but we know for sure, we could cut of ur finger with NO pain to u in a bit and no painkillers are needed"

Guys, at the end, you could be at least polite. If you live far away from the field of events ,if u dont have relatives who live in the very centre of war, never been there, dont talk the regional language to base ur conclusions on real people talks, and even never cared to learn the history of the region, as long as never cared to learn at school what the geopolitical interests are, then have dignity to let women talk about the things they might know better.


Hooppy, have you ever been to Osetia, to say that the auther of the topic is simply brainwashed by propaganda and her information is all fake?

Guys from USA, why your military ships are coming to bring humanitarian help to Georgia? DOnt u have civil ships? Or you military guys dont have enough job in Iraq and now in Afganistan? You need to participate in more wars so far away from your own land?
I really hope when we are finished with this small event all payed by USA (100% of Georgian army budget is payd by US dollars, and u guys have problems with property markets), we, Russia, will start investing money in army budgets of Mexica or Cuba!!! That might be interesting

With time guys from the west will accept the fact that russian goverment is not any longer licking anyones , sorry, asssss. We do what we suppose is better for our country's security policy , and we dont have any more need for aprovals , credits and apology. Very soon we will be giving financial credits to USA, if you guys dont stop playing wars and dont pay attention to ur economy


Are there any guys from Cuba here?

[IrmaMos]

Предлагаю всем обиженным россиянам , и всем русским в душе, начать сбор средств для финансирования отправки подводной лодки к берегам Кубы в целях поддержки независимого кубинского режима.
А то несправедливо, у нас что, денег что ли меньше?


На Венесуэлу и Никарагуя уже денег собрали, мы их уже в беде не оставим, так что имейте в виду!...сейчас только закончим заварушку, и поплывем все вместе туда... а там и Ирак, и Афганистан , вроде, тоже не очень рады гостям с запада...так что всем найдем , чем заняться...будем плавать там кругами, экономику дистабилизировать, синхронно, фигуры подправим, политические дебаты спровоцируем, уверена, и в штатах найдется пара деревень, желающих присоединится к Израилю.

[whynotme]

Раз одну темку про политику прикрыли - помещу сюда... позабавило :p

http://www.fishki.net:80/comment.php?id=40516

[Neilikka]

whynotme
Участницы закрытой дискуссии (не все, правда, но может,не все еще знают об этом) объединились в группу, организованную Ирмой, разговор решили продолжить там.
Что же касается участников мужского пола, то бревно обухом не перешибешь.
Все, кто разделяет идею, объединяющую участников группы( включая участников мужского пола), мы ждем там!Иначе все темы на эту тему перезакрывают.
:welcome::conference::grouphug::Laie_94::viannen_0 1:

[Luckyguy]

So what .....I see Georgia needs them ,and what will all this boil down to is this the world can not afford another USSR.I think it is the free worlds biggest concern after the Terrorist threat.Nothing personal.... just business.

[beezneesman]

To get this thread back on to its original subject.

What happens in Georgia and what is delivered to Georgia is none of Russia's business. Georgia is not part of Russia - or are those who rule over you planning to recreate the old Tsarist empire?

[kentuckydan]

[QUOTE=IrmaMos;4456]

Guys from USA, why your military ships are coming to bring humanitarian help to Georgia? DOnt u have civil ships? [QUOTE]

Not really most civil ships fly other nation flags for tax purposes, besides the government is already paying to run those ships and pay their crews, costs nothing extra to use them for humanitarian purposes, they were used to great effect during the Tsunami

What complaint do you have if we use swords for plowshares?

[cracker]

Международные парламентарии подтвердили факт грузинской агрессии

МОСКВА, 6 сен - РИА Новости. Военную акцию со стороны Грузии в отношении Южной Осетии можно рассматривать как агрессию, к такому выводу пришел представитель парламента Украины Сергей Гордиенко, который в составе международной парламентской делегации накануне побывал в Цхинвали.

"Агрессия в отношении маленькой Осетии однозначно была, акты геноцида однозначно были. Тех кто задает вопросы об адекватности действия России, пусть зададутся вопросом, а кто должен был остановить этих "зарвавшихся демократов"? Ведь кто-то должен был. И нашлись такие люди, нашлась такая страна, которая встала на защиту осетинского народа", - сказал он в субботу на пресс-конференции в РИА Новости.

Украинский парламентарий призвал СМИ к объективному освещению событий, произошедших в Южной Осетии. Он выразил сожаление, что телеканалы Украины давали тенденциозную оценку происходящего.

"Они выдавали ту картинку, которая шла по мировым телеканалам", в результате чего у людей формировалась мнение, что Россия выступает в этом конфликте как агрессор, сказал Гордиенко.

Однако реальность, по его словам, была далека от той ситуации, которая создавалась СМИ.

"То что мы увидели там (в Южной Осетии) людей нашего поколения просто потрясает. Мы увидели, то, что видели в кинохронике и фото о Сталинграде. Это очень жестоко", - сказал Гордиенко.

По его мнению, необходимо ставить вопрос об ответственности тех, кто дал приказ об уничтожении мирных жителей.

"Факт геноцида на лицо, и эти преступления не имеют срока давности. Тот, кто отдавал приказы, должен быть привлечен к ответственности", - сказал украинский парламентарий.

С ним солидарен его коллега депутат Сейма Латвии Николай Кабанов, который также посетил Цхинвали.

"То, что мы увидели - это был настоящий шок, это абсолютно перекрывает рассудок", - сказал Кабанов.

"Считаю, что осетинский народ заслужил быть единым и независимым. Реакция России на события была не жесткой, она была мягкой", - добавил он.

Делегация в составе около 20 человек, среди которых - члены Федерального собрания РФ, а также зарубежные парламентарии и представители общественных организаций, в пятницу посетила Цхинвали (Южная Осетия).

Помимо россиян, в Цхинвали прибыли представители парламентов Чехии, Болгарии, Латвии, Молдавии, Украины, а также члены общественных организаций Словакии, Армении, Франции и США.

www.rian.ru


Вот теперь читайте и переводите и прекращайте злопыхать в сторону России !!!!

[vitashenka]

Thank you, Alla, for article... yesterday i saw it on tv and i saw the faces of that people when they saw crashed Tschenval... they were really shoked and dint expact to see that terrible pisture

[beezneesman]

Threads started in English are supposed to stay in English FFS! Why is that so hard to understand
:rolleyes:

[cracker]

Threads started in English are supposed to stay in English FFS! Why is that so hard to understand
:rolleyes:

Why we do understand all you are writing in English
If you want to read what the previous comment is. Please, use the translation.. :yo:

[zoroooo]

yesterday on Belgian television was a documentary about the ship wich is now in front of Poti.

It was an older document form Belgian tv showing that modern boot which is specialized in organizing batle and information services.They got years ago autorisation to film it.

The makers who visited the boat so 4 years ago told in front of camera that in that ship is no space for storage of humanitarian aid.

The ships if filled up with latest militarian technology.

zorozoro

[beezneesman]

Why we do understand all you are writing in English
If you want to read what the previous comment is. Please, use the translation.. :yo:

Spamming of threads started in English with Russian posts was causing problems on the old forum.

I'm not the moderator so I'm not going to say anymore about it

[Bengal-Tiger]

Which was necessary because it was the middle of a bitterly cold winter and Russia was trying to blackmail Ukraine by cutting off its gas supply.

The fact was that Ukraine did not want to pay market price for gas deliveries despite Russia announced this half a year in advance. What interests have Russia sell gas at a large discounted price then Ukraine wants an alliance with USA? Talk about blackmail is nothing else by western propaganda to discredit Russia. If USA is so concerned about Ukraine why don't they supply Ukraine with gas a hefty discount? Russian natural resources is Russian property and no one else’s, it's time for USA to realize this fact!

[vitashenka]

Spamming of threads started in English with Russian posts was causing problems on the old forum.

I'm not the moderator so I'm not going to say anymore about it

It was problem just for 2-3 people :becky:

[saprosky]

The spanish frigate "Almirante Juan de Borbón" is an air defense frigate class, but also equipped with defensive systems.

About class F-100 frigates (not only spanish class)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvaro_de_Baz%C3%A1n_class_frigate

About "Almirante Juan de Borbón" frigate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almirante_Juan_de_Borb%C3%B3n_(F102) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almirante_Juan_de_Borb%C3%B3n_%28F102%29)


BTW, our news say that it is in Constanza (Romania) not in Georgia.

[kentuckydan]

The fact was that Ukraine did not want to pay market price for gas deliveries despite Russia announced this half a year in advance. What interests have Russia sell gas at a large discounted price then Ukraine wants an alliance with USA? Talk about blackmail is nothing else by western propaganda to discredit Russia. If USA is so concerned about Ukraine why don't they supply Ukraine with gas a hefty discount? Russian natural resources is Russian property and no one else’s, it's time for USA to realize this fact!

Ah that is the crux in order to hold the sword of energy supply at the throats of it's Fomer Imperial possessions Russia must eliminate any competing lines of supply IE the BTC pipeline that runs from Azerbeijan through Georgia, otherwise what exactly is the Peace Keeping mission of seizing the Port of Poti?

As for propanganda? Since Russia had done this already to several countries besides Ukraine and threatens more of the same, I don't think it's just propaganda, though I don't doubt it being propanganda is wishful thinking on the part of some.

[beezneesman]

Ah that is the crux in order to hold the sword of energy supply at the throats of it's Fomer Imperial possessions Russia must eliminate any competing lines of supply IE the BTC pipeline that runs from Azerbeijan through Georgia

Absolutely correct. That is the crux of the matter.

Putin must be very pi$$ed off that he has actually failed to achieve his war aims. Saakashvilli is still in office in Georgia and a submissive pro Russian puppet regime has not been installed in Tbilisi. In reality (apart from their temporary presence in Poti) the Russian army is no closer to the BTC pipeline than before but they have managed to wake up NATO and the EU to the strategic threat that the Russian regime now presents to Western democracies in the long term.

[Dariko]

Absolutely correct. That is the crux of the matter.

Putin must be very pi$$ed off that he has actually failed to achieve his war aims. Saakashvilli is still in office in Georgia and a submissive pro Russian puppet regime has not been installed in Tbilisi. In reality (apart from their temporary presence in Poti) the Russian army is no closer to the BTC pipeline than before but they have managed to wake up NATO and the EU to the strategic threat that the Russian regime now presents to Western democracies in the long term.

You are absolute right my dear ! But it is hard to understand for some RUSSIA`S very patriot girls ...! here..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... only ....why other country must solve my problems and choose my country`s leader I have no idea...! i had seen that nearby the pipeline....... were found.... about 30 bombs...only thanks to God.... they didn`t exploded.

[vitashenka]

But it is hard to understand for some RUSSIA`S very patriot girls ...!

As well as for some of you, patriotick guys, also difficult to understand somewhat :frusty:

[zoroooo]

Ah that is the crux in order to hold the sword of energy supply at the throats of it's Fomer Imperial possessions Russia must eliminate any competing lines of supply IE the BTC pipeline that runs from Azerbeijan through Georgia, otherwise what exactly is the Peace Keeping mission of seizing the Port of Poti?

As for propanganda? Since Russia had done this already to several countries besides Ukraine and threatens more of the same, I don't think it's just propaganda, though I don't doubt it being propanganda is wishful thinking on the part of some.


Ken read my post about the ship above..russians asking just to check the boat to be convinced about the claim its only food suplies..

;)

[sliver]

still, i'm surprised by naivete of our dear american friends
for general development ) the link to the material by F. William Engdahl. actually very informative
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_3682.shtml

русская версия: http://www.inosmi.ru/stories/05/09/02/3453/243822.html

and here it is the web site of this author about geopolitics
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net

[sliver]

Ken read my post about the ship above..russians asking just to check the boat to be convinced about the claim its only food suplies..

;)

he shouldn't. the american version is the only true for him in the world. senseless to ask )

[Gabber]

You are absolute right my dear ! But it is hard to understand for some RUSSIA`S very patriot girls ...! here..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!... only ....why other country must solve my problems and choose my country`s leader I have no idea...! i had seen that nearby the pipeline....... were found.... about 30 bombs...only thanks to God.... they didn`t exploded.

Dariko, I was tolerating your nasty PMs sent to me, I am thick skined and can take women poking without a flinch, but not when you send your threats to other members.

Ban.

And please, stop sending us messages, we don't read them any more, we understand already in full what you are planning to do and how much you hate us for letting russian members speak their voice.

[dzerassa]

To get this thread back on to its original subject.

What happens in Georgia and what is delivered to Georgia is none of Russia's business. Georgia is not part of Russia - or are those who rule over you planning to recreate the old Tsarist empire?

it's a bit close to our borders, u know. and if it is weapons which is being delivered russia has right to worry.

but i agree with u, georgia is independent state as well as for example irans is, so iran has right to have its nuclear weapons. so don't interfer into iranian nuclear problem, it's none of usa or any other countr's business

[dzerassa]

Since Russia had done this already to several countries besides Ukraine and threatens more of the same, I don't think it's just propaganda, though I don't doubt it being propanganda is wishful thinking on the part of some.

dan, can u give me a link to an interview of our officilas where they threaten ?
as i see it it's a normal business, russia is a seller and has right to set prices, besides the price offered to ukraine is lower than that to the rest of europe as i understand it.
what i don't understand is why anyone blames russia for setting price for its natural resources, if u don't like it, buy from other countries.

[dzerassa]

Russian army is no closer to the BTC pipeline than before .
that's the main concern of "western democracies" and explanation of such devotion to this criminal regime

[dzerassa]

why other country must solve my problems and choose my country`s leader I have no idea...! i.


ask usa. They did it so many times allover the word

[dzerassa]

Read this about milliband's decision.

hypocrit.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article4678834.ece

[beezneesman]

Read this about milliband's decision.

hypocrit.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article4678834.ece


You should be happy that the British Army is not sending its special forces to covertly infiltrate Moscow dressed as women ;-)

[dzerassa]

You should be happy that the British Army is not sending its special forces to covertly infiltrate Moscow dressed as women ;-)

no beezneesman, we r not happy 'cause we prepared so many cute skirts for them. :)

[beezneesman]

no beezneesman, we r not happy 'cause we prepared so many cute skirts for them. :)

Those pipers already have all the skirts they need :-)

[dzerassa]

Those pipers already have all the skirts they need :-)

pity milliband deprived the pipers from showing their skirts to the russian girls, definately brithish soldiers have common topics for discussion with russian girls - skirts :)

[beezneesman]

pity milliband deprived the pipers from showing their skirts to the russian girls, definately brithish soldiers have common topics for discussion with russian girls - skirts :)

The Russian girls have missed out ;-)

The 'Devils in skirts' cannot afford underwear!

[dzerassa]

The 'Devils in skirts' cannot afford underwear!

this is where russian girls can help :)

[dzerassa]

Girls,

this is interview of vahtang kikabidze

http://community.livejournal.com/inosmi_ru/133473.html

[vitashenka]

Girls,

this is interview of vahtang kikabidze

http://community.livejournal.com/inosmi_ru/133473.html

:eek::eek::eek::eek: no comments... Anyway i never liked him as artist :becky:

[sliver]

:eek::eek::eek::eek: no comments... Anyway i never liked him as artist :becky:

не знаю.. по-моему, хороший актер, певец..
запутали?
удивила фразочка: "Мы должны постараться каким-то образом покончить с этой страной. В этом нам должен помочь Запад"..
вы уверены, что это вообще его слова?

некоторые известные предсказатели пророчат россии миссию всеобщего спасителя.. прям, рубят сук, на котором будут сидеть )))

прочитала вчера, что саакашвили на государственные посты назначал приятелей, родственников и.. своих подружек (2004 г. 20-летнюю девицу - по делам южной осетии.. вскоре снял) :eek:

[vitashenka]

Может, мое равнодушие к нему объясняется тем, что толком не знакома с его творчеством, кроме читы-дриты-маргариты ничего не знаю :rolleyes:

[IrmaMos]

So what .....I see Georgia needs them ,and what will all this boil down to is this the world can not afford another USSR.I think it is the free worlds biggest concern after the Terrorist threat.Nothing personal.... just business.


Thats the sense of the whole trouble

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

guys, in the west are scared of the idea to have the former USSR back! This is their biggest concern NOT to have a strong country at the other side of the world...Isnt it much nicer to dominate in the worlds policy and rule the planet? How unfair it is that still Russia owns the biggest part of the natural resources of the former USSR,... so much time and money was spent on making this country little and not able even to have its own interests!!!:p
It is still the biggest concers!!!!

:lol::lol::lol:

what about the Rome Empire? Hey, what really hapepened to american indians?

[IrmaMos]

To get this thread back on to its original subject.

What happens in Georgia and what is delivered to Georgia is none of Russia's business. Georgia is not part of Russia - or are those who rule over you planning to recreate the old Tsarist empire?

Im so sad we didnt deliver american indians a couple of atom bombs in advance:lol: calling it humanitarian aid

what about the crises in Cuba not so long ago in the XX century, have u been happy to have russian forces in Cuba close to ur borders? Have they been there? What has your country done to stop that?


darling, no matter what u say or want, the old Egyptian Empire will be recreated by UFO people and it will rule the world

[zoroooo]

The fact was that Ukraine did not want to pay market price for gas deliveries despite Russia announced this half a year in advance. What interests have Russia sell gas at a large discounted price then Ukraine wants an alliance with USA? Talk about blackmail is nothing else by western propaganda to discredit Russia. If USA is so concerned about Ukraine why don't they supply Ukraine with gas a hefty discount? Russian natural resources is Russian property and no one else’s, it's time for USA to realize this fact!

I agree..if you feel to go your way then just aply rules..and dont ask favours.

that american idolatry has no sense

[beezneesman]

[QUOTE=IrmaMos;5072]Thats the sense of the whole trouble

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

guys, in the west are scared of the idea to have the former USSR back! This is their biggest concern NOT to have a strong country at the other side of the world...Isnt it much nicer to dominate in the worlds policy and rule the planet? How unfair it is that still Russia owns the biggest part of the natural resources of the former USSR,... so much time and money was spent on making this country little and not able even to have its own interests!!!:p [QUOTE]

What do you mean by 'so much and money was spent on making this country little'? British and other Western investors have been putting billions into the Russian economy. It's not in our interests to have Russia as a poor unstable, undeveloped country - that would only mean even more refugees etc hammering on our door.

As for a Cold War I guess it's not desirable but speaking personally it would not bother me that much. I lived the first 25 years of my life under the Cold War and even after it officially ended I simply assumed that Russian nuclear weapons would still be targeted on us. So that situation has not changed - what has changed is that Russia's conventional military is a lot smaller than the Soviet Unions and is a lot further away from Western Europe so not much to worry about there either.

Putin and the rest of the 'Russia Strong' clique who form the current generation of kleptocrats who rule over you serfs from the Kremlin can do as much posturing as they like - it won't make any difference here in the UK or EU:)

[IrmaMos]

[QUOTE=IrmaMos;5072]Thats the sense of the whole trouble

[QUOTE]

What do you mean by 'so much and money was spent on making this country little'? British and other Western investors have been putting billions into the Russian economy. It's not in our interests to have Russia as a poor unstable, undeveloped country - that would only mean even more refugees etc hammering on our door.

As for a Cold War I guess it's not desirable but speaking personally it would not bother me that much. I lived the first 25 years of my life under the Cold War and even after it officially ended I simply assumed that Russian nuclear weapons would still be targeted on us. So that situation has not changed - what has changed is that Russia's conventional military is a lot smaller than the Soviet Unions and is a lot further away from Western Europe so not much to worry about there either.

Putin and the rest of the 'Russia Strong' clique who form the current generation of kleptocrats who rule over you serfs from the Kremlin can do as much posturing as they like - it won't make any difference here in the UK or EU:)


:lol::lol::lol: yesterday had tea with Putin and talked about these matters. He doesnt really care what some buzznsmen think about the Russian policew in the UK or EU
By the way, EU union, and lots guys from EU with whom I also have had a chance to drink tea are not really happy with EU , and not sure UK has the same views as they do :yo:

Do you really know how much american money were invested into political life of Russia? American funds paying for education for so called russian democrats from goverment, grants for their porgramms and researches, money which were used to make people believe America is a heaven which we should adore and duplicate in Russia? Do you want some numbers? Ask Gorbachev fund or Elzin family. But now they have done what they were supposed to do, they collapsed the old system, water doesnt stand still, times change, new goverment of Putin, which the western world doesnt like so much ,cause this goverment anylonger is not willing to be weak and play the game on the rules of western world, is not the same, but as all goverments in the world has his own faults..,,maybe UK goverment is perfect? really, is it? or maybe EU is happy being all together ?

British and other western investers NEVER invested in Russia as much money as some western goverments did in Russia, ask your goverment how much did they pay , definitly not in a direct way, but with the only one purpose - to make the country be dependant on them in taking its own decisions. Want examples? Here they are. Russian plant which in the USSR times was producing strategic products ( electronics for military satellites) was bough in the "precious for western world times of democratic Garbachev regime" by small american company, which reorganized the strategic industry to produce the... paper... to be used only for the machines produced by....Xerox. Do u know who owns Xerox?Try to trace british roots in its finances:plane:...is anyone allowed in Britain to buy the factory which is supposed to be element of the strategic country system? You still have the state monopoly in these areas also. But for Russia to be called a democratic country it was proclamed , we can not have areas closed for private economy influence and all ( the ones who can propose better price, these were naturally western companies, try to guess why? ) can have the access to this markets. Now it stopped. It started from the company UKOS, who was very much connected in its finances with american institutes, but originally has been the element of russian strategic system of national resources. Many countries in the world have set the state property on the national resources, but seems so this ONLY bothers western world in connection with Russian issue- scary USSR empire!!!, and only now, when PUTIN-evils goverment refused to let anyone who wants get into our pants

Guys, be prepared, soon less and less women from russia will be happy to meet foreign sex travellers. They simply wont have enough money to seduce them anymore, all the money will be gone to pay for the car fuel :p.... back to Thailand then:plane::lol:

Love you all

[zoroooo]

so To me it seems that our russian friends have learned a lot from Bush.

Unilateral dessisions...ladies sorry but since some tome I and you were complaining of bush his way.. but today your leaders are in the same patern..

So stop to complain...your president just talked as we europeans dont excist and our way has no voice...verry strong talk..but economy isnt only about gas??Its as well about knowledge ect..

I feel and agree to have more tuff actions to Russia. Your leaders are far out and have simplistic thinkings.


But but ladies...I like you and and dont hit me..just marry me between 28 37 ..:faint:

[beezneesman]

British and other western investers NEVER invested in Russia as much money as some western goverments did in Russia, ask your goverment how much did they pay , definitly not in a direct way, but with the only one purpose - to make the country be dependant on them in taking its own decisions.

I am really not clear how this paranoid fantasy is working for you Irma. How exactly would Western countries make a country as resource rich as Russia 'dependent' The notion is ridiculous.



is anyone allowed in Britain to buy the factory which is supposed to be element of the strategic country system? You still have the state monopoly in these areas also.

Actually Irma yes they are - look up the sale of Qinetiq sometime. A number of the major public utility comapanies in the UK are also foreign owned.

Guys, be prepared, soon less and less women from russia will be happy to meet foreign sex travellers. They simply wont have enough money to seduce them anymore, all the money will be gone to pay for the car fuel :p.... back to Thailand then:plane::lol:

Well that won't bother me darling. I haven't been to Russia or Thailand - for sex or anything else! :)

[IrmaMos]

I am really not clear how this paranoid fantasy is working for you Irma. How exactly would Western countries make a country as resource rich as Russia 'dependent' The notion is ridiculous.


Well that won't bother me darling. I haven't been to Russia or Thailand - for sex or anything else! :)

darling, paranoia bothers you? You trying to insult my sickness? is that personal attack? Am i right? Im a weak woman, and I start crying if men bahave with no respect to my female dignity. Behave. May be I need some protection?

Ледяной горою айсберг из тумана вырастает,и несет его теченье по бескрайним по морям. Хорошо тому, кто знает, как опасен в океане,...как опасен в океане Айсберг встречным кораблям....(пауза реклама с БиБиСи)А ты такой холодный, как айсберг в океане, и все твои печали под черною водой, ...а я такая вся ридикулезная, а все твои печали под черною водой. :rolleyes: Любовь похожая на сон! Im all in my love fantasies when I dream at night, Im disgusting rich oil russian spoilt girl who has her own opinion about the events , and this opinion doesnt fit beesneesman from out world

"beesneesman", is a wong spelling...I have learned at school , men who work with bees, are called beekeepers, and I do respect their business and love honey, but rarely they have time to travell, thats why I take my comment about Thailand back, You are right, guys will still look for unpaid sex fun in inet, and definitly they wont have time or any interest in reading a bit more than just hot cooked news in local newspaper or TV. I adore these people, politics and financial markets dont bother them... ciao , heartless beekeeper its time for my beauty sleep and dreams. C u T:yo:

[beezneesman]

darling, paranoia bothers you? You trying to insult my sickness? is that personal attack? Am i right? Im a weak woman, and I start crying if men bahave with no respect to my female dignity. Behave. May be I need some protection?

My apologies Irma - no disrespect intended. I realize you're a bright lady. 'Paranoid' was the wrong word for me to use. I just think your analysis is incorrect.

[huney]

And here I'd thought your nickname was in reference to the bee's knees, as in 'something very special'. :)

[beezneesman]

And here I'd thought your nickname was in reference to the bee's knees, as in 'something very special'. :)

Sadly not - much of my time is spent merely on striving to achieve mediocrity

[fbibob]

It's not in our interests to have Russia as a poor unstable, undeveloped country - that would only mean even more refugees etc hammering on our door.

After "unstable, undeveloped" please insert nuclear armed.....

[don_pedro]

still, i'm surprised by naivete of our dear american friends
for general development ) the link to the material by F. William Engdahl. actually very informative
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_3682.shtml

русская версия: http://www.inosmi.ru/stories/05/09/02/3453/243822.html

and here it is the web site of this author about geopolitics
http://www.engdahl.oilgeopolitics.net

While Engdahl has an impressive grasp of geopolitics, his conclusions quite often are extremely flaky, to say the least, and are rarely backed up by the facts he presents. He’s one of those conspiracy theorists who likes to make unsubstantiated claims and then connect the dots to produce a picture that's not quite there.

Did you read his “A Century Of War: Anglo-American Oil Politics and the New World Order”? The conspiratorial nature of this book makes it perfect for fans of X-Files, but any serious reader should take it with a hefty pinch of salt. He’s often guilty of presenting his own speculation/opinion as as the truth. For example, in the book he makes the following nutty claims with no documentation or support whatsoever: the Eisenhower Highway System was built for no reason other than to boost oil consumption; or that Henry Kissinger purposely touched off the 6-day War ; or that the CIA intentionally started the hippie movement; etc.

Reading his books and articles is somewhat like listening to Mr. Zhirinovskiy – very interesting and entertaining if you don’t take it seriously.

[sliver]

pedro, so called x-files are base of the all scenarios happening in the world. if you think that 9/11 can perform terroristic organization, i'm only sorry )
as well once i have already mentioned effective political technologies for regime changes. it wasn't info 'from Engdahl' ))) i didn't know about him before

[dzerassa]

Может, мое равнодушие к нему объясняется тем, что толком не знакома с его творчеством, кроме читы-дриты-маргариты ничего не знаю :rolleyes:

нет, он хороший актер и певец

[dzerassa]

[QUOTE=IrmaMos;5072][B]

I lived the first 25 years of my life under the Cold War and even after it officially ended I simply assumed that Russian nuclear weapons would still be targeted on us.


u continue to live in the cold war. once i told u already, wake up, it's global warmingggg :)

[dzerassa]

but today your leaders are in the same patern..

So stop to complain...your president just talked as we europeans dont excist and our way has no voice...verry strong talk..but economy isnt only about gas??I



some examples? what exactly our president said to make u feel he ignores europeans?

[dzerassa]

I am really not clear how this paranoid fantasy is working for you Irma. How exactly would Western countries make a country as resource rich as Russia 'dependent' The notion is ridiculous.


Irma is 100% right. yeltsin's ministers sold out state property for vouchers, our economy was completely ruined, factories didn't work, our army was destroyed. i remember times when the soldiers coming to the flats beggin to eat something. but our young reformers were continueing their experiments. totally ruined economy, no production, we were just exporting everything, importing just natural resources. who was getting benefit from those resources? not the people, the oligarhs were. in the su from those resources we had free education, free medical service, free children's sport, etc. did we start selling less resources? no. just the benefit was going to oligarhs for their castles, bank accounts, yaughts, etc. we had goo aircraft production, why r we buying boeyngs now? we had good machinery production, good agriculture, it just needed improvment, adjustment to new conditions but it was totally destroyed. though we were opening casinos, night clubs, gay clubs - we became "civilized". and i remember when clinton came he said russia is on the right way, it needs to go on it. thank u, we r fed up with your democracy. let us build our country as we want.



Well that won't bother me darling. I haven't been to Russia or Thailand - for sex or anything else! :)

maybe u should try then :)
at least then u can say that u know russia not just from bbc or internet

[dzerassa]

After "unstable, undeveloped" please insert nuclear armed.....

did u mean pakistan?

[dzerassa]

Reading his books and articles is somewhat like listening to Mr. Zhirinovskiy – very interesting and entertaining if you don’t take it seriously.

maybe 'cause he says something u don't like

[beezneesman]

Irma is 100% right. yeltsin's ministers sold out state property for vouchers, our economy was completely ruined, factories didn't work, our army was destroyed. i remember times when the soldiers coming to the flats beggin to eat something. but our young reformers were continueing their experiments. totally ruined economy, no production, we were just exporting everything, importing just natural resources. who was getting benefit from those resources? not the people, the oligarhs were.

So we (as in Westerners generally) are getting the blame because some of YOUR people (oligarchs) ripped you all off?

[IrmaMos]

"beesneesman", is a wong spelling...I have learned at school , men who work with bees, are called beekeepers,

My apologies Irma - no disrespect intended. I realize you're a bright lady. 'Paranoid' was the wrong word for me to use. I just think your analysis is incorrect.


I agree , we are not showing disrespect and not trying to insult each other, but just trying to give opinion from different sides on one matter Its understandable, goverments give people facts which fit their politics. Times change, politics change and then the same facts are given in a different way. We should use this chance tiexchange information for our benefits. We are simple people. You are a beekeeper Im a housewife, and our views are made by the difference in how mass media broadcasts the events in different parts of the world. Lets not argue about that, any mass media is a political tool for the goverment! Your media and ours are not perfect, the same as goverments, You have problems with goverment in the UK, the same as we do in RF, and no one knows how would the UK goverment react if China sent its navy sponsored by RF to the south coast of the UK, guess you will not be happy?! Guess, you are already not happy about Iran and Afganistan. Or maybe, this doesnt touch personally you, but you media(goverment) wants you to believe that Afganistan is your personal pain, and Iraq was a real danger, bacterial weapons were real there and this is your problem!!! Do u believe u will live better or worse if they dont get what THEY want from Iraq?

and I agree my analyses could be incorrect, bee keeper has nothing to do with the wrong spelling of beezneesman...and any fact can be intepreted in a different way. Me and my brother were collecting data together for PHD work in Russia travelling, seeing it with our own eyes, then...at the end, he is making his PHD in germany and the conclusions sound completly different!!! But u know what he said me? He appologized for using my data and said that if his conclusions were different he would never had a chance to finish his PHD in Germany:yo:...the same in Russia, when many years ago during the Elzin time at the uni i wrote article about the need to protect national interests, my young professor(who now ended up in foreign branch of Ernst&Young, guess he is payed in dollars) said me that my work is dull and not interesting, cause our task is to give as much freedom as we want to foreign investers, and not to protect our industries and people, from disadvantages of such investments in a long run perspective

lets just stay people with open minds and kind intentions and not let any goverment involve us in wars of propaganda.

many facts showen on TV are lies, people's feelings, pain and sorrows are real, many people can belief and fight till the die for the things which dont exist, but maybe we have the chance to give each other some chance to be less a toys in the games of politics. We should listen each other and give each other a chance to say smth what we NEVER been told by our goverments about. That is for our own benefit

[beezneesman]

lets just stay people with open minds and kind intentions and not let any goverment involve us in wars of propaganda.

many facts showen on TV are lies, people's feelings, pain and sorrows are real, many people can belief and fight till the die for the things which dont exist, but maybe we have the chance to give each other some chance to be less a toys in the games of politics. We should listen each other and give each other a chance to say smth what we NEVER been told by our goverments about. That is for our own benefit

Amen to that Irma!! :-)

[beezneesman]

did u mean pakistan?

Good point! Pakistan is a real headache!

[IrmaMos]

So we (as in Westerners generally) are getting the blame because some of YOUR people (oligarchs) ripped you all off?

Nobody is blaming you, we are being friendly here

just we, being russians, know a bit more about our own history , and if you r curious can tell u some interesting facts...by the way, about our oligarchs and their western roots also

when the old Soviet system collapsed, in the time of Gorbachev, who had his studies in USA, and then whos programm of political change in the country was all financed by USA, his Gorbachevs Fund was started from there, and all "researches", educational programms for kids and students were financed by these money ( who pays - he plays), then we didnt have any oligarchs at all, rich people=in goverment (the same as the majority of rich in the west have lobby groups in goverments, or became senators themselves)were represented only by old former "soviet directors", this traditionally has been the army production field...ufortunatelly they were not able to operate in the new conditions of the proclaimed market economy, simply never been taught how to do that....

but Gorbachev and Funds like his opened huge possibilities for bright men to start education in the facilities produced by experienced in market economy western facilities, were sent abroad or had education given by western professors-consultants in Russia, then these bring people travelled abroad, and were given money(their funs and programs were sponsored by western world, cause old "soviet directors" didnt want to give a penny to a new generation)...and finally, some of these bright people felt strong enough either to get rid of old rich ones, or to buy them, or to make "friendship", and started with the support of the western world who was very much interested in having people who are "western friendly" in taking decisions in russian economy and goverment. That was the Elzin times, new breed of young and educated (in a western manner) came to rule the country...

Now times changed again:yo: Not back to the soviet time, we learned the idea of the western market economy, but now we are strong enough to make our own rules in our own country. First guy who suffered was Chodorkovskyi, whos oil company was connectd with western money so well, that he started trying to push the pro-american policy in goverment..

do u know where are these guys now? In prison or hiding in the UK. Say hi, to mister Berezovskyi. He was the father of the first russian "independant"(sponsored by western money) chanel NTV. our first oligarch. I admitt, western money made great job, the chanel is perfect, but it was never pro-russian. Look how CNN stops broadcasting if the interview goes in a wrong in the opinion of american goverment way?Have u seen these clip in u-tube when osetian woman-citizen of USA, who was in Georgia recently started saying that Russia saved Osetia? CNN just shut her down. Is that smth called as independant free media? Or they want to be pro-american also! I agree they are pro-american, and NTV is pro-russian now!

[dzerassa]

just we, being russians, know a bit more about our own history ,

Irma, u r too strict to our western friends, they know a lot: they watch fox news, cnn; they use internet, read some clever books plus use their imagimation :)

as for us, u r wrong thinking that we know more than them, 'cause we r simply brainwashed by soviet propaganda

ирма, это не перешибешь, они все еще в холодной войне, у нас есть один путь проитв них - засылать наших девчонок, будут нашими засланными казачками :)

[dzerassa]

Say hi, to mister Berezovskyi. He was the father of the first russian "independant"(sponsored by western money) chanel NTV. our first oligarch.

ntv was gusinkiy's though u r right, not big difference

[dzerassa]

Good point! Pakistan is a real headache!

Ah, we agree on somthing!!! :cheer2:

[dzerassa]

Irma, u r too strict to our western friends, they know a lot: they watch fox news, cnn; they use internet, read some clever books plus use their imagimation :)

as for us, u r wrong thinking that we know more than them, 'cause we r simply brainwashed by soviet propaganda

ирма, это не перешибешь, они все еще в холодной войне, у нас есть один путь проитв них - засылать наших девчонок, будут нашими засланными казачками :)

How come riverrock gave me a thank for this post? :) isn't it abrandon? if yes, girls, we did good job and recruited one nice american guys into russian patriots :)

[IrmaMos]

How come riverrock gave me a thank for this post? :) isn't it abrandon? if yes, girls, we did good job and recruited one nice american guys into russian patriots :)

отвечу цитатой из басни о вороне и лисе, там еще главным вопросом стал сыр!:p

Он еще не патриот, но его отважное суровой мужское сердце дрогнуло, когда он увидел, как сильно любят свою Родину эти слабые, глупые и совершенно нуждающиеся в мужской опеке русские женщины

[sliver]

Quote:
Originally Posted by don_pedro View Post
Reading his books and articles is somewhat like listening to Mr. Zhirinovskiy – very interesting and entertaining if you don’t take it seriously.
maybe 'cause he says something u don't like

Specially for Don_Pedro and other patriots The Empire of Good by Kostya Semin (I've run into by chance today).
http://rutube.ru/tracks/374909.html?related=1&v=98b53a927cd6d529ac457f3312081a00
Actually interesting view. There you can see not only words former officials of US department of state, CIA, etc. they confirm that (like me)) W.Engdahl is rather informed guy ) Actually I'm looking forward to your disclaimers. Perhaps, it's hard 'spin doctor' job - searching them in Net ;)

[don_pedro]

Quote:
Originally Posted by don_pedro View Post
Reading his books and articles is somewhat like listening to Mr. Zhirinovskiy – very interesting and entertaining if you don’t take it seriously.


Specially for Don_Pedro and other patriots The Empire of Good by Kostya Semin (I've run into by chance today).
http://rutube.ru/tracks/374909.html?related=1&v=98b53a927cd6d529ac457f3312081a00
Actually interesting view. There you can see not only words former officials of US department of state, CIA, etc. they confirm that (like me)) W.Engdahl is rather informed guy ) Actually I'm looking forward to your disclaimers. Perhaps, it's hard 'spin doctor' job - searching them in Net ;)

I did say “Engdahl has an impressive grasp of geopolitics” in the first sentence of my original post. But being informed does not necessarily mean unbiased, trhuthfull and correct. For instance, Novodvorskaya and Berezovsky are also well informed. Do you trust all conclusions they make? As for the documentary, there's not much to be said…

It’s very ironic the film starts with a fragment of 30-years old Soviet news propaganda about inevitable and imminent collapse of US economy and political system. Why is it ironic? Because Semin uses in his agitprop the same rhetoric – rhetoric of the Cold war, and the same propaganda methods: some real facts mixed with half-truths, spin politics, demonization, and unverified, at times incorrect statements asserted as facts with no proof. But his real talent shines in quote remixes: he takes quotes from different people interviewed at different times and most likely asked different questions, cuts citations to pieces, and puts them together to create one panoramic view that fits his agenda. Another neat trick is the panel of interviewees he assembled: Naom Chomsky, Pat Buchanan, Engdahl, a few former CIA agents, etc. Just imagine a remix of selected quotes by Putin, Zhirinovsky, Rogozin, Barkashov, etc. along with commentaries from Novodvorskaya and Berezovsky, for example. That would be quite a documentary!

BTW, is that the same guy who caused an international scandal between Russia and Serbia by making offensive comments about assassinated Serbian politician? If that’s him, he has a very bright future. LOL!

P.S.: Did you imply I’m a ‘spin doctor’? If you feel the urge to call me a doctor, please call me Dr. Love. :yo::lol:

[RiverRock]

Dzerassa: Irma, u r too strict to our western friends, they know a lot: they watch fox news, cnn; they use internet, read some clever books plus use their imagimation

as for us, u r wrong thinking that we know more than them, 'cause we r simply brainwashed by soviet propaganda

How come riverrock gave me a thank for this post? isn't it abrandon? if yes, girls, we did good job and recruited one nice american guys into russian patriots

I (ibrandon7=RiverRock) chose to take your words literally in which case they are true. :p I don't see a sarcasm emoticon smiley in there.

[dzerassa]

I don't see a sarcasm emoticon smiley in there.

i thought it was clear :)

[RiverRock]

IrmaMos: отвечу цитатой из басни о вороне и лисе, там еще главным вопросом стал сыр!

Он еще не патриот, но его отважное суровой мужское сердце дрогнуло, когда он увидел, как сильно любят свою Родину эти слабые, глупые и совершенно нуждающиеся в мужской опеке русские женщины

************************************************** *
The Fox and the Crow

A FOX once saw a Crow fly off with a piece of cheese in its beak and settle on a branch of a tree. “That’s for me, as I am a Fox,” said Master Reynard, and he walked up to the foot of the tree.

“Good-day, Mistress Crow,” he cried. “How well you are looking today: how glossy your feathers; how bright your eye. I feel sure your voice must surpass that of other birds, just as your figure does; let me hear but one song from you that I may greet you as the Queen of Birds.”

The Crow lifted up her head and began to caw her best, but the moment she opened her mouth the piece of cheese fell to the ground, only to be snapped up by Master Fox. “That will do,” said he. “That was all I wanted. In exchange for your cheese I will give you a piece of advice for the future—
“DO NOT TRUST FLATTERERS.”
************************************************** *****

Although I am a Master Fox, I disagree with this fable. It is foxes with dishonest intentions that you should not trust. Flattery can be real and not only for the cheese.
So the advice should be "DO NOT TRUST LIARS THAT ONLY CARE ABOUT THEMSELVES"

and " FLATTERY WILL GET YOU EVERYWHERE"

Irmamos you look very beautiful in all of your pictures. :yo: I would say so about you also Dzerassa but I have never seen a picture of you. :becky:

[brown-raider]

CNN WTF i WOULDN'T WATCH THOSE MORONS IF THEY PAID ME.. everyone knows CNN is the Comunst News Network..:becky:

[dzerassa]

CNN WTF i WOULDN'T WATCH THOSE MORONS IF THEY PAID ME.. everyone knows CNN is the Comunst News Network..:becky:

i though it means Capitalist Newest Nonsense

[RiverRock]

If yes, girls, we did good job and recruited one nice american guys into russian patriots

You girls (except the angry, crazy ones) are doing a good job. I see the Pro-Russian point of view very clearly after have been having our such fun discussions on here.

I understand why Putin is popular and how it is perceived that he was the strong leader that Russia needs. That Russians are proud of him for standing up against America for the good of Russia. Some of the stuff I have read on Russian websites and news almost make me love Putin :lol:. Or if American ideology is so great then how come it didn't work in Russia and who the fook is hypocritical America to advise us how to run our country. Etc...

It's just in my opinion... well you know my opinion and the rest is for other posts.

[dzerassa]

You girls (except the angry, crazy ones) are doing a good job. I see the Pro-Russian point of view very clearly after have been having our such fun discussions on here.

I understand why Putin is popular and how it is perceived that he was the strong leader that Russia needs. That Russians are proud of him for standing up against America for the good of Russia. Some of the stuff I have read on Russian websites and news almost make me love Putin :lol:. Or if American ideology is so great then how come it didn't work in Russia and who the fook is hypocritical America for advising us how to run our country. Etc...

It's just in my opinion... well you know my opinion and the rest is for other posts.

that's possibly my poor english but sometimes i understand the words but not the meaning :)
but
u r welcome to join the club :)

[kentuckydan]

Ken read my post about the ship above..russians asking just to check the boat to be convinced about the claim its only food suplies..

;)

Naval ships stay at sea for extended periods of time. now since they cannot run to the cornner grocery store at the drop of a hat, don't you think they might have extensive amounts of food and medical supplies on board??

[zoroooo]

Naval ships stay at sea for extended periods of time. now since they cannot run to the cornner grocery store at the drop of a hat, don't you think they might have extensive amounts of food and medical supplies on board??


No hte ship seems not to be build to be ussed as transporter of humanitarian aid..It simply a spy and war ship..so it not so inocent.


lavuun

[beezneesman]

No hte ship seems not to be build to be ussed as transporter of humanitarian aid..It simply a spy and war ship..so it not so inocent.


lavuun

You talk about spying like it's a bad thing?

Spying is what has helped to keep the peace in Europe since 1945!!!

[IrmaMos]

************************************************** *
The Fox and the Crow

A FOX once saw a Crow fly off with a piece of cheese in its beak and settle on a branch of a tree. “That’s for me, as I am a Fox,” said Master Reynard, and he walked up to the foot of the tree.

“Good-day, Mistress Crow,” he cried. “How well you are looking today: how glossy your feathers; how bright your eye. I feel sure your voice must surpass that of other birds, just as your figure does; let me hear but one song from you that I may greet you as the Queen of Birds.”

The Crow lifted up her head and began to caw her best, but the moment she opened her mouth the piece of cheese fell to the ground, only to be snapped up by Master Fox. “That will do,” said he. “That was all I wanted. In exchange for your cheese I will give you a piece of advice for the future—
“DO NOT TRUST FLATTERERS.”
************************************************** *****

Although I am a Master Fox, I disagree with this fable. It is foxes with dishonest intentions that you should not trust. Flattery can be real and not only for the cheese.
So the advice should be "DO NOT TRUST LIARS THAT ONLY CARE ABOUT THEMSELVES"

and " FLATTERY WILL GET YOU EVERYWHERE"

Irmamos you look very beautiful in all of your pictures. :yo: I would say so about you also Dzerassa but I have never seen a picture of you. :becky:


at the least you are curious in Russian language and folk literature! Great step...you can attend now a university classes on Russian literature and not only use inet to learn new facts...when you get your Masters degree, I tell you the басню о несмышленом зайке-зазнайке, и его трагическом конце.

By the way, you ve been always too young to see my pictures. In reality Im an ugly witch, employed by Mosad

For the rest of you, who see the pro-russian opinion in everything russians write here.

Since first colonists came to Noth America, its population of native americans was destoyed. You have been always using the strength of english guns , as they have been your suppliers for centuries and all colonists worked to gain for Grown, gold, furs, territories. That is your history and mentality , to gain using guns You excuse such attitude by bringing democratic progressive values to uncivilized societies, you decided that your principles are democratic. Why told you that? Maybe your Propaganda? CNN is not good enough! Maybe BBC is much better? What does BBC propaganda says about native indians killed in the 16th century, or mexicans? Americans lied about chemical weapons in Iraq and then went into war, using guns to get closer to the oil. Americans said Vietnam was un democratic and wanted war. Americans said Mexicans didnt need their own land and killed them all, proposing the rest some money for the annexation of the huge territory. Americans now bring and supply weapons to some (the generals of Saakashvili already say to Nato they didnt want to start war and would stop their leader if they could) georgians to protect their "independance" in the right to KILL osetian people! Killing is very very usual for americans , they started doing that with indians and can not stop till now. and the Excuse is the same ALWAYS - we are bringing democratic values of freedom...and we have the right to use guns to kill....I understand that for americans to realize that means to ruine the comfort of your life, cause asap when u lose ur enemy outside, you will find it INSIDE and new civil war begins. You have too many problems inside the country, the only way to distract your mind is some enemy -EVIL EMPIRE outside, which you all will hate and bring your anger towards. It was Soviet Union, now it is Iraq, there were much more ENEMIES of the USA outside the world , usually these enemies are even located very very far away from u (maybe u americans just love to travell), but still they are dangerous and to prove that, your goverment is ready to do anything, even the 11/9..to make you believe you need wars , you need goverment who wants wars, you need your enemies...or your nation collapses, and guys in washington can not win elections

[beezneesman]

Maybe BBC is much better? What does BBC propaganda says about native indians killed in the 16th century, or mexicans?

Actually you will find that as the BBC is staffed almost exclusively by handwringing, guilt ridden postcolonial liberals and lefties that the organization is on an almost permanent guilt trip about that kind of thing in its programming.

It has got to the point where if you live in Britain it's actually a bit of a nause to turn the TV on and be continually lectured about the evil doings of ones colonizing ancestors by people who would quite happily be apologists for Lenin, Mao and Stalin and large numbers of current corrupt tin pot Third World dictators.

[IrmaMos]

Actually you will find that as the BBC is staffed almost exclusively by handwringing, guilt ridden postcolonial liberals and lefties that the organization is on an almost permanent guilt trip about that kind of thing in its programming.

It has got to the point where if you live in Britain it's actually a bit of a nause to turn the TV on and be continually lectured about the evil doings of ones colonizing ancestors by people who would quite happily be apologists for Lenin, Mao and Stalin and large numbers of current corrupt tin pot Third World dictators.


so post colonial liberals dont let you watch TV making an evil of people who long ago killed millions to gain more land for the Crown? Did I understand your answer right? But thats history , you are right, lots of bad things happened, we should make a lesson of it, and not repeate it in the future

By the way, can you name any military action taken my Russians, Tzar , Soviet regime against other countries to gain their land away from people traditionally living there by killing them and include their terrotories in the Empire? My fathers family was killed during the Revolution as the Enemy of the Nation, but I dont see it as internal political fight with the old regime, but not the wish of new revolutionary regime to enlarge its prosperity by gaining more lands.

what do you personally thing about these people who gain land from other nations cause the economy needs more gain to protect itself from the collapse. They should be excused? Or they can do it again and again, and no one ever stops them?

Like that we can come to the point when anyone who has more strength can come to a smaller nation and kill them all to get their land and resources. Do you know that Osetians are very small nation and to kill them all, a week could be enough? Dont you know Georgia and Osetia has been always having territory disputes and somehow the georgian goverment was trying to eliminate during the last 15 days osetians. Anelika, being a georgian can tell u more about the history of this long lasting battle for the land. But osetians dont want to leave the place they were born and lived for centuries, as some american friends propose ( if u dont want to be in georgia, just GO away to Russia,....maybe american colonists when they tried to gain independance from the Crown had just to go to Australia and leave the land for the Crown? and not brainwash anyone now with " the tight of any nation to protect its independance", they forget about this right if this doesnt suit them) and as mexicans , osetians fight for their land Americans just use this old conflict to gain some political gains, elections demand some extra performances, and in general their policy is "war enforcing"(Iraq is the perfect example)

Dont you think the same happened then Hitler decided that germans have this right to kill people , take away their land , and they can prove it with the strength of their Army?

[dzerassa]

By the way, can you name any military action taken my Russians, Tzar , Soviet regime against other countries to gain their land away from people traditionally living there by killing them and include their terrotories in the Empire? My fathers family was killed during the Revolution as the Enemy of the Nation, but I dont see it as internal political fight with the old regime, but not the wish of new revolutionary regime to enlarge its prosperity by gaining more lands.

that's something they cannot argue with. there r no nations joined to russia either by force by willingly who were destroyed by russians. as i wrote before those who were joined by force is not really conquered by russia, often russia helped those political forces in the country which were supporting russia.

russia didn't place them in reservations.
russia didn't go to australia or india or south america; all territories r around centre of russia and it was neccessary for russia in order to survive or to let survive others (like georgia, armenia).

russia itself several times became a country which was losing territories as well as independence.

russia didn't arrange all those crusades which took so many peoples' lifes.
if we look into history of the "civilized" european countries, many have much more blood in their history than russia.

[dzerassa]

Do you know that Osetians are very small nation and to kill them all, a week could be enough?

they know it irma just they prefer to say about 4 mln georgians opposing many mln russians. they somehow miss ossetians from this.

[beezneesman]

so post colonial liberals dont let you watch TV making an evil of people who long ago killed millions to gain more land for the Crown? Did I understand your answer right? But thats history , you are right, lots of bad things happened, we should make a lesson of it, and not repeate it in the future?

I think you did not understand me Irma. Sorry I don't speak or type Russian (yet). My point is that we in Britain get too much from our media about the colonial actions in the past etc. The BBC in particular give far too much airtime to it. So we cannot be accused of being unaware of what went on.

By the way, can you name any military action taken my Russians, Tzar , Soviet regime against other countries to gain their land away from people traditionally living there by killing them and include their terrotories in the Empire? My fathers family was killed during the Revolution as the Enemy of the Nation, but I dont see it as internal political fight with the old regime, but not the wish of new revolutionary regime to enlarge its prosperity by gaining more lands.

I'm sorry Irma I simply don't believe the assertions that you and Dzerassa are making that the extension of the Tsarist and later Soviet Empire eastwards across Central Asia and Siberia and southwards to the Caucasus was some kind of relatively benign exercise compared to say the development of Britain's maritime empire or the westward expansion of the USA. For example, the fighting between the Russian and the Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen etc in Central Asia was every bit as ferocious as the fighting the British got involved in during their colonization of India and, only 64 years ago the Soviet Union tried to wipe out the Chechens as a race by deporting the entire nation to the east. Human nature, power politics and the desire to get rich quick at someone elses' expense all militate against it being how you like to think it was. If it was how you say it was you would not have had all the recent troubles in Chechenya, Georgia, and when the USSR collapsed, you would not have had Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia and the Central Asian Republics ALL breaking away from Russia at the first chance they got!!!

[zoroooo]

You talk about spying like it's a bad thing?

Spying is what has helped to keep the peace in Europe since 1945!!!

lol,

bad or not , not up to me to judge that...i havent all the tools for it...but sure is that snowhite and I arent married yet..Thats a fact:lol:

And the US are maybe helping kind but they arent idiots?thats a fact as well.:yo:

So what is written is sometimes propaganda and if we have the change to see deeper investigating journalisl than our opinion has more chance to have a value...:cell:

sorry have to go Jozeph Kabila is calling me

zorooooo

[IrmaMos]

I'm sorry Irma I simply don't believe the assertions that you and Dzerassa are making that the extension of the Tsarist and later Soviet Empire eastwards across Central Asia and Siberia and southwards to the Caucasus was some kind of relatively benign exercise compared to say the development of Britain's maritime empire or the westward expansion of the USA. For example, the fighting between the Russian and the Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen etc in Central Asia was every bit as ferocious as the fighting the British got involved in during their colonization of India and, only 64 years ago the Soviet Union tried to wipe out the Chechens as a race by deporting the entire nation to the east. Human nature, power politics and the desire to get rich quick at someone elses' expense all militate against it being how you like to think it was. If it was how you say it was you would not have had all the recent troubles in Chechenya, Georgia, and when the USSR collapsed, you would not have had Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia and the Central Asian Republics ALL breaking away from Russia at the first chance they got!!!


I understand your opinion and share it

But very curious to know when did Russia have fights with Kazahkhs and Turkmens? Do you mean the Tatar-igo 1237-1480?
Siberia when in the 15th century russians started exploring Siberea, didnt have any form or shape of govermental organization which was not russian, tribes were very very few and far between, the tribe could count 50 members, the shaman - religious leader would be ruling the tribe. Russians were not killing these tribes and never sent them away, cause they were not making any differene to russian towns there. We never had any wars with tribes there in that period, None happen now Even now the terrotiry of Siberea is hardly inhabited, mostly population is located in the cities,and forests are all around, I have been there recently, amazing nature. Cities are all dependant on connections with central Russia and dont even dream about being independant....ofcourse, if not america starts this game

Thats why if we never tried to kill and send people away from their land ( deporting which u mention was a political instrument used at the end of Second World war, caused by the need of the war time, this was was started by Hitler and has the intention to eliminate all the people in the East to gain their land and resources, in this situation anyone who was supporting Hitler was under pressure), it sounds for us strange when some americans say to osetians "if u dont want to be in Georgia go to Russia, leave your land ", if Osetians never tried to eliminate Georgians ( the nation is much bigger than Osetians),Osetians are guilty in being not willing to leave their homes where they lived for centuries. Moldova, Ukraine, Georgia, the same as Kazahstan, Armenia, Azerbaidjan, Belorussia and others are independant states now, the same as Russia is independant from them, after the collapse of the USSR, and all signed the treaty about the Union, cause political form of governing doesnt make us enemies and not neibors, who have close connection,You will see with time Ukraine will be very friendly with Russia again, cause traditions and business connections has been always the reason to call Ukranians and Russians - brother countries, lots of people there now, dont accept the policy made by their pro-american President Ushenko.

Deporting, elimination and using guns was the practice which never should occure again, (We not going to mention american indians and mexicans or British colonial wars , I hope). but seems so some goverments never make any lessons, I really hope Russian goverment will not use deporting of Georgians now as a political instrument, even if Georgians deport Osetians and wanted to eliminate them all. Lots of Georgians are in Moscow now, and nothing happened to them...the ones who escaped to Europe and beg for safe place there using the reason that they are deported from Russia!!!, will be on ur neck asking for your money , they lie, they could go to georgia back, why do they go to Europe?

And once again, we dont have troubles in Georgia! Georgia tried to deport and kill Osetians. Now Osetia is independant state, they have their own goverment, their freedom to protect their independance is protected by their Army. If americans say that about their right to protect their independance ( which is not doubted, but still guns are used ), why Osetians cant do the same?

Americans lie ( the same they did about chemical weapons in Iraq, cause they needed to involve others into war for "democracy" means for their political gain) when they say Georgia is in danger cause its independance is questioned by Russia. They had conflict with Osetia, they tried to solve this conflict by eliminating osetians, if not russian army in osetia, which was there due to the agreement with georgian, osetian and russian sides made in the 90s about the peaceful forces in the region, all osetians would be killed in one week and no more nation in the world as osetians would exist

[LilyaVlad]

I understand your opinion and share it

But very curious to know when did Russia have fights with Kazahkhs and Turkmens? Do you mean the Tatar-igo 1237-1480?
Siberia when in the 15th century russians started exploring Siberea, didnt have any form or shape of govermental organization which was not russian, tribes were very very few and far between, the tribe could count 50 members, the shaman - religious leader would be ruling the tribe. Russians were not killing these tribes and never sent them away, cause they were not making any differene to russian towns there. We never had any wars with tribes there in that period, None happen now Even now the terrotiry of Siberea is hardly inhabited, mostly population is located in the cities,and forests are all around, I have been there recently, amazing nature. Cities are all dependant on connections with central Russia and dont even dream about being independant....ofcourse, if not america starts this game

Thats why if we never tried to kill and send people away from their land ( deporting which u mention was a political instrument used at the end of Second World war, caused by the need of the war time, this was was started by Hitler and has the intention to eliminate all the people in the East to gain their land and resources, in this situation anyone who was supporting Hitler was under pressure), it sounds for us strange when some americans say to osetians "if u dont want to be in Georgia go to Russia, leave your land ", if Osetians never tried to eliminate Georgians ( the nation is much bigger than Osetians),Osetians are guilty in being not willing to leave their homes where they lived for centuries. Moldova, Ukraine, Georgia, the same as Kazahstan, Armenia, Azerbaidjan, Belorussia and others are independant states now, the same as Russia is independant from them, after the collapse of the USSR, and all signed the treaty about the Union, cause political form of governing doesnt make us enemies and not neibors, who have close connection,You will see with time Ukraine will be very friendly with Russia again, cause traditions and business connections has been always the reason to call Ukranians and Russians - brother countries, lots of people there now, dont accept the policy made by their pro-american President Ushenko.

Deporting, elimination and using guns was the practice which never should occure again, (We not going to mention american indians and mexicans or British colonial wars , I hope). but seems so some goverments never make any lessons, I really hope Russian goverment will not use deporting of Georgians now as a political instrument, even if Georgians deport Osetians and wanted to eliminate them all. Lots of Georgians are in Moscow now, and nothing happened to them...the ones who escaped to Europe and beg for safe place there using the reason that they are deported from Russia!!!, will be on ur neck asking for your money , they lie, they could go to georgia back, why do they go to Europe?

And once again, we dont have troubles in Georgia! Georgia tried to deport and kill Osetians. Now Osetia is independant state, they have their own goverment, their freedom to protect their independance is protected by their Army. If americans say that about their right to protect their independance ( which is not doubted, but still guns are used ), why Osetians cant do the same?

Americans lie ( the same they did about chemical weapons in Iraq, cause they needed to involve others into war for "democracy" means for their political gain) when they say Georgia is in danger cause its independance is questioned by Russia. They had conflict with Osetia, they tried to solve this conflict by eliminating osetians, if not russian army in osetia, which was there due to the agreement with georgian, osetian and russian sides made in the 90s about the peaceful forces in the region, all osetians would be killed in one week and no more nation in the world as osetians would exist


You are a very clever lady

[RiverRock]

Dzerassa: that's something they cannot argue with. there r no nations joined to russia either by force by willingly who were destroyed by russians. as i wrote before those who were joined by force is not really conquered by russia, often russia helped those political forces in the country which were supporting russia.

Trying to portray Russian history as an Angel compared to American history is dishonest and a double standard also! The crimes of the Soviet union far out way the "guns" used by Americans. The only reason Russia hasn't used their guns to dominate the world is because their guns were and are countered by Western European and American guns.

Bringing up American history so far back doesn't show that American ideology and way of life that America is based on is not good. It is the flaw of Humanity that is to blame for fighting and killing not democracy. It is not perfect but far superior to the current autocracy of Russia. How far back in Russian history do you want to go ... Peter the Great?

Just one recent example of Russians conquering by force is your great Patriotic war. The Soviet Union actually had a treaty with Nazi Germany to divide countries of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania. So in reality the Soviet Union of whose legacy belongs to Russia was just as much the bad guy as Nazi Germany. It is only that they were double-crossed by Hitler that brought Soviets to the side of the allies.

But the same as with the Mexicans and the Indians it is not completely relevant to things happening to day. Since the collapse of USSR, Russia is supposed to have a better government for the good of the Russia people.

[RiverRock]

IrmaMos: at the least you are curious in Russian language and folk literature! Great step...you can attend now a university classes on Russian literature and not only use inet to learn new facts...when you get your Masters degree, I tell you the басню о несмышленом зайке-зазнайке, и его трагическом конце.

Russian literature is very thoughtful and good, but I thought this fable was an Aesop fable from ancient Greece, not Russian literature. Maybe I should learn Russian language at Russian University. It is difficult to learn to speak in Russian sentences without a teacher.

I do not want to hear fable about bunny with a swellhead. Can you tell me fable about master fox who lives happily ever after with misses fox instead?

[dzerassa]

Trying to portray Russian history as an Angel compared to American history is dishonest and a double standard also! The crimes of the Soviet union far out way the "guns" used by Americans. The only reason Russia hasn't used their guns to dominate the world is because their guns were and are countered by Western European and American guns.



dear friend, i am not trying to prtrait russian history as an angel, i am just opposing to all your attckes on russia as if your own country is an angel. "crimes" of the soviet union r not more than those of the usa, but i garee with u that russia hasn't used all its guns 'cause it was balanced by usa and vice versa usa was balanced by soviet union and was thinking twice od the soviet unon's reaction before doing something. the two pwers were belaning each other, now that su doesn't exists usa decided to have a monopoly as a superpower. don't choke just.





Just one recent example of Russians conquering by force is your great Patriotic war. The Soviet Union actually had a treaty with Nazi Germany to divide countries of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania. So in reality the Soviet Union of whose legacy belongs to Russia was just as much the bad guy as Nazi Germany. It is only that they were double-crossed by Hitler that brought Soviets to the side of the allies.


was it before the munich agreement?

[dzerassa]

But the same as with the Mexicans and the Indians it is not completely relevant to things happening to day. .


how convinient, a?

Being not russian by ethnity i can tell u that russians didn't destroy native population, didn't place them in reservations.

learn from russians how to treat nations leaving with u in one state dear



Since the collapse of USSR, Russia is supposed to have a better government for the good of the Russia people.

thank u for your worry for russian people but we somehow manage without being lectured on it. just make sure amercan people don't elect another george bush, americans deserve better leader

[dzerassa]

one more thing, riverrock.
i don't want to insult anyone of western guys saying that all your knowledge of russia is articles in internet and some books of some writers. but u yourself proved it when said extermely stupid thing about ossetians being placed in south ossetia by stalin and then appologised saying "oops, wrong conflict". u just read something written by someone and think u know russian history

[kentuckydan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverRock


Just one recent example of Russians conquering by force is your great Patriotic war. The Soviet Union actually had a treaty with Nazi Germany to divide countries of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania. So in reality the Soviet Union of whose legacy belongs to Russia was just as much the bad guy as Nazi Germany. It is only that they were double-crossed by Hitler that brought Soviets to the side of the allies.




was it before the munich agreement?


Nope it came a year later

Munich Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement)

The Munich Agreement (Czech: Mnichovská dohoda; Slovak: Mníchovská dohoda; German: Münchner Abkommen) was an agreement regarding the Sudetenland, which were areas along borders of Czechoslovakia, mainly inhabited by Czech Germans. The agreement was discussed at a conference held in Munich, Germany among the major powers of Europe without the presence of Czecholovakia. In the early hours of 30 September 1938, the agreement was signed. The purpose of the conference was to discuss the future of Czechoslovakia in the face of territorial demands made by German dictator Adolf Hitler. The agreement, signed by Germany, France, Britain, and Italy permitted German annexation of Czechoslovakia's Sudetenland. The Sudetenland was of immense strategic importance to Czechoslovakia, as most of its border defenses were situated there.

Because the state of Czechoslovakia was not invited to the conference, the Munich Agreement is commonly called the Munich Dictate by Czechs and Slovaks (Czech: Mnichovský diktát; Slovak: Mníchovský diktát). The phrase Munich betrayal (Czech: Mnichovská zrada; Slovak: Mníchovská zrada) is also frequently used because military alliances between Czechoslovakia and France were not honored.


Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact)


The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, colloquially named after Soviet foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov and German foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop, was an agreement officially entitled the Treaty of Non-aggression between Germany and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, signed in Moscow in the early hours of August 24, 1939, dated August 23

In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a secret protocol dividing the independent countries of Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania into Nazi and Soviet spheres of influence, anticipating "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries' territories. All were subsequently invaded, occupied, or forced to cede territory by Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, or both. Only Finland was able to defend herself against the (Soviet) invasion and remained an independent Western democracy

[dzerassa]

Nope it came a year later



i know. it was just my answer to this screams about soviet-nazi agreement.

[RiverRock]

dzerassa: dear friend, i am not trying to prtrait russian history as an angel, i am just opposing to all your attckes on russia

I know. It is what we do. Dear Russian friend. <no sarcasm> :)

[RiverRock]

dzerassa: i don't want to insult anyone of western guys saying that all your knowledge of russia is articles in internet and some books of some writers. but u yourself proved it when said extermely stupid thing about ossetians being placed in south ossetia by stalin and then appologised saying "oops, wrong conflict". u just read something written by someone and think u know Russian history

If I would have read something, I wouldn't have said that. Nowhere does it say that Ossetians were place there by Stalin. I just said that one extremely stupid thing as you said "off the top of my head". If I say something wrong I will realize it. AndIf what I know is wrong about something, anyone with intelligence is free to tell me why.

Eastern girls knowledge of Indians, Mexican war, and American History is from articles on internet and some books too. You think you know American history but you don't quite understand the intricacies and context of it. It is obvious also.

Actually all of everyone's knowledge of history is from books and other media. Even if you lived through the history you would only know a very small part of what happened. To get the bigger picture and details of what happened, you would have to be told or read something in school or on your own.

[RiverRock]

dzerassa: how convinient, a?

Being not russian by ethnity i can tell u that russians didn't destroy native population, didn't place them in reservations.

learn from russians how to treat nations leaving with u in one state dear

I do not think Russia would be a very good role model on how to treat other native populations. It's treatment of its own native people is worse. Just Stalin alone was a mass murderer.

Most of the Native Americans died from European diseases not destroyed in war with white man.

[RiverRock]

Or should I have said dear Ossetian Friend?

[Lucker]

Jurassic
You are wrong . USSR referred to United Soviet State Reservations .
Having created burial grounds everywhere it spread , the Russian Moscow man now wants to dig up all the bodies so that it can take all the goodies buried alongside .

:lol::lol::shocked::shocked:

[dzerassa]

I do not think Russia would be a very good role model on how to treat other native populations. It's treatment of its own native people is worse. Just Stalin alone was a mass murderer.

Most of the Native Americans died from European diseases not destroyed in war with white man.

georgians were speaking georgian in georgian republic, armenians were speaking armenian in anrmenia, etc. state language of soveit republics were russian and native. u can't even slightly compare it with how indian land became united states of america.

[Lucker]

[QUOTE=dzerassa;8209]georgians were speaking georgian in georgian republic, armenians were speaking armenian in anrmenia, etc. state language of soveit republics



So ?
Leave them alone .
Stop breaking into their reservations and taking their Oil and Gas .
Don't copy the Yanks if you think they do .

[yurtsever]

Post deleted by moderator.
================================================== ===================
Warning:Please don't put posts that just try to inflame a topic.
================================================== ===================

[dzerassa]

oh i am so interested what was in yurtsever's post. can u say your ideas in some better way so that not to annoy the moderator? :)

[Lucker]

Jurassic
He was apparently accusing you of being an escaped mental lunatic .
Naturally he was assured that since you have been medicating yourself regularly , your attacks have been less frequent and less severe .
Incidentally , I was chatting to my Doctor and he told me that people who are in huge denial place an intolerable burden on their whole system and this tends to produce quite irrational and compulsive behaviours . He was pleased when I told him I was keeping a caring eye on you .
By the way , do you think that Irma lass is also unhappy .Her mind seems to be wandering all over the place and I fear a tyrannical outburst when Putin next provokes someone too far . Ukraine ?

[beezneesman]

Jurassic
He was apparently accusing you of being an escaped mental lunatic .
Naturally he was assured that since you have been medicating yourself regularly , your attacks have been less frequent and less severe .


I can confirm that Dzerassa is most definitely not an escaped loony - actually she is rather sweet (for a Chekist)

;-)

[whynotme]

Про взаимопонимание (только для умеющих читать по-русски)

Телефонный разговор Лаврова и Миллибэнда. Стенограмма :becky:
ЛАВРОВ (сдержанно):
Мы говорим: Европа, нам не враг ты!
Но сверхдержаве трудно жить без драк.
Мы агрессивны? Предъявите факты!
Где факты, сэр?

МИЛЛИБЭНД (краснея):
Как вы сказали? !!!!?!

ЛАВРОВ (отмахиваясь):
Я не о том!
Когда вас бьют по роже,
Вы будете недвижны, как тюфяк,
Иль все-таки рукой махнете тоже?

МИЛЛИБЭНД (смущенно):
Простите, сэр... Вы вновь сказали "!!!!"?

ЛАВРОВ (не замечая):
Не делайте из Грузии икону!
Медведев умный, он кончал юрфак,
Мы действуем сугубо по закону...

МИЛЛИБЭНД (белея):
Простите, сэр, но это третий "!!!!"

ЛАВРОВ (увлекаясь):
Любого, кем нарушена граница,
Мы запихнем в надежный саркофаг.
Скажите это
всем, кто усомнится!

МИЛИБЭНД (дрожа):
Я понял, сэр! Не надо больше !!!!!

ЛАВРОВ (непреклонно):
Россия, между прочим, сверхдержава,
А сверхдержаве нужен крепкий щит.
Кто будет нас учить основам права --
Тот затрещит, а после запищит!

МИЛЛИБЭНД (в отчаянии):
Oh shit! Злодеи сбрасывают маски!
Они хотят войны, держу пари!
(в трубку, умоляюще):
Please put in mind that I am asking, asking...

ЛАВРОВ (в бешенстве):
Что?!
Путин? Ass king?! Ну-ка повтори!

================================================== ========
Request: Please keep posts in the language that the thread was started in. - moderator

[whynotme]

англицкое слово из 4 буков цензон не пропустил ...

[Lucker]

- actually she is rather sweet (for a Chekist)

;-)[/QUOTE]

What sort of sweet ? An Acid Drop , or , maybe a Pratline
I also see another member of YWRM has re appeared after a cleansing fortnight's vacation in Grodi .
Clearly forgotten her English .

[dzerassa]

Про взаимопонимание (только для умеющих читать по-русски)

Телефонный разговор Лаврова и Миллибэнда. Стенограмма :becky:
ЛАВРОВ (сдержанно):
Мы говорим: Европа, нам не враг ты!
Но сверхдержаве трудно жить без драк.
Мы агрессивны? Предъявите факты!
Где факты, сэр?

МИЛЛИБЭНД (краснея):
Как вы сказали? !!!!?!

ЛАВРОВ (отмахиваясь):
Я не о том!
Когда вас бьют по роже,
Вы будете недвижны, как тюфяк,
Иль все-таки рукой махнете тоже?

МИЛЛИБЭНД (смущенно):
Простите, сэр... Вы вновь сказали "!!!!"?

ЛАВРОВ (не замечая):
Не делайте из Грузии икону!
Медведев умный, он кончал юрфак,
Мы действуем сугубо по закону...

МИЛЛИБЭНД (белея):
Простите, сэр, но это третий "!!!!"

ЛАВРОВ (увлекаясь):
Любого, кем нарушена граница,
Мы запихнем в надежный саркофаг.
Скажите это
всем, кто усомнится!

МИЛИБЭНД (дрожа):
Я понял, сэр! Не надо больше !!!!!

ЛАВРОВ (непреклонно):
Россия, между прочим, сверхдержава,
А сверхдержаве нужен крепкий щит.
Кто будет нас учить основам права --
Тот затрещит, а после запищит!

МИЛЛИБЭНД (в отчаянии):
Oh shit! Злодеи сбрасывают маски!
Они хотят войны, держу пари!
(в трубку, умоляюще):
Please put in mind that I am asking, asking...

ЛАВРОВ (в бешенстве):
Что?!
Путин? Ass king?! Ну-ка повтори!

:lol2::lol2::lol2:

[dzerassa]

How do u find them? Write yourself? The one about bush and saakashvili was also very funny

[RiverRock]

Calling Путин (Putin) an Ass king is not very nice. :JC_moon: :king2:

[dzerassa]

Calling Путин (Putin) an Ass king is not very nice. :JC_moon: :king2:

the poem is very funny :)

[yurtsever]

The US and NATO is the responsible for the Georgian-Russian war, and now they are trying to scare Russia with their biiiiiig naval forces.. my post was "yankee go home", which we use in Turkey to protest American influence on our country.. The US and Nato ships broke the Montro Protocol which says no armed ship can pass through the Bosphorus.. An american coup in Georgia and Ukraine which moved them away from Russia.. and i do not believe the attack on Abhkazya and South Osettia was done without the american approval. so once again.. the US is the responsible, american imperialism is the one who is responsible..

[Sveta's Hero]

Do you have any proof?

[yurtsever]

Do you have any proof?

an American supported coup of Ukraine and Georgia?

[dzerassa]

there r many american instructors, advisor, some ngos etc in georgia. saakshvili was put either with support of usa or with their consent to him, 'cause it was a plot how he took power. he wouldn't have done it being not sure it will work in th international community. i do beleive americans either gave him green light, or knew about it. it is also proved by the fact that russia wanted america to do something about it after it all started, putin asked bush to do something about it, to stop but nothing. it is america who provided weapons to georgia, instructors and i don't think putin is that naive to say that he might have proofs of americans being among the invadors. i am sure they have it and showed it that way.

[dzerassa]

what is really infuriating is mentor tone how american poltitians speak with russia. this condoleesa rice is a vivid example of a person who can be used when everything should be spoilt and bought to war to to peace. she is a person for making problems between countries not friendship. after yougoslavia and iraq very many people in russia changed their opinion of america. it's a pity 'cause it reflects on opinion about people though it is politicians who r in charge

[fbibob]

Frankly, it is an honor. The USA seems to have the ability to do anything, anywhere, at any time. Whoever is in power (except maybe Putin) we put him there. Whatever the war is, we started it. I am very flattered.

[zoroooo]

gg,

time to give me an private option to use tumb downs....I hate arogancy.


zoroooo

[brown-raider]

gg,

time to give me an private option to use tumb downs....I hate arogancy.


zorooooLuvuun, that's funny you love obama and he is an arrogant s.o.b. as a matter of fact your rather arrogant yourself...:mad:

[IamKeenan]

Calling Путин (Putin) an Ass king is not very nice. :JC_moon: :king2:


Funny is never nice,that is why it is funny:lol:

[Lucker]

Burt Sever
Why do you think it was wrong for the US ( and other countries) to peacefully push for regime change , as they undoubtedly did in both Georgia and Ukraine .
One of the only points of living is to try and improve oneself and others --- both materially and from a moral and ethical stance .
As it happens , Moscow also threw millions of dollars at Ukraine , desperately trying to prevent what turned out to be Orange Revolution success . But so what ?
I am not aware of any community choosing a Soviet type regime or lifestyle when they have actually lived under one and also in a country trying to live by democratic principles and the Rule of Law .
People are not stupid when they have real choices . You do not hurl yourself off a cliff just to catch a cheap bottle of Vodka .
I will let you into a little secret the Russians cannot even abide to hear .
We all have the same soul but it is only when you are in pain that you truly feel it !!!!!!!!

[alpine-frolic]

Luvuun, that's funny you love obama and he is an arrogant s.o.b. as a matter of fact your rather arrogant yourself...:mad:

View from here, belgians never appear arrogant , just funny and sympathic.

[yurtsever]

Burt Sever
Why do you think it was wrong for the US ( and other countries) to peacefully push for regime change , as they undoubtedly did in both Georgia and Ukraine .
One of the only points of living is to try and improve oneself and others --- both materially and from a moral and ethical stance .
As it happens , Moscow also threw millions of dollars at Ukraine , desperately trying to prevent what turned out to be Orange Revolution success . But so what ?
I am not aware of any community choosing a Soviet type regime or lifestyle when they have actually lived under one and also in a country trying to live by democratic principles and the Rule of Law .
People are not stupid when they have real choices . You do not hurl yourself off a cliff just to catch a cheap bottle of Vodka .
I will let you into a little secret the Russians cannot even abide to hear .
We all have the same soul but it is only when you are in pain that you truly feel it !!!!!!!!

why is it wrong? tell me how you would feel if i would coup your government and set up a puppet one who only listens to me.. would you be happy to lose your independence? its like the same with the military coup which was supported by the US in turkey in the 80s. from then on, we are a puppet nation.. btw my grand parents lived in soviet Kazakhstan and they tell me it is the bad times after Stalin.. which is cuz of the ones who came after Stalin left Marxist-Leninist ways, gave power to the secret police which caused an oppressing regime..

[Lucker]

Burt Sever ,
I could not agree more with you old chap .
That is why the English set such a fine example by not setting up puppet governments anywhere .
In the great and glorious days , Johnny Foreigner was a bit backward and rather ungodly .
Our Peacekeeing Operations brought education and God and Democracy into their lucky lives .
I sometimes wonder if we are needed again .A Russian Peacekeeping Operation to help the downtrodden peasants might be very popular . What about your country , old bean ?

[sliver]

Just imagine a remix of selected quotes by Putin, Zhirinovsky, Rogozin, Barkashov, etc. along with commentaries from Novodvorskaya and Berezovsky, for example. That would be quite a documentary!

i'm looking forward to.. please come on )) then we'll have chance to discuss
but why to make for your film interview of such as Zhirinovsky or Novodvorskaya? :eek: did they really do any policy? i always thought they are used for other job )
pedro, better to make film with interview of real 'performers' of russian policy (president's administration officials.. fsb) as in that film (cia officials and of department of state).. ok?
you know, i always prefer direct 'makers' and especially real witnesses.. cause they don't have reasons/motives to tell lie against official versions :yo:

[sliver]

Frankly, it is an honor. The USA seems to have the ability to do anything, anywhere, at any time. Whoever is in power (except maybe Putin) we put him there. Whatever the war is, we started it. I am very flattered.

yep.. i guess it was a honor for cia and fbi to do possible death of own citizens 9/11.. any congrats too?

well, as usual war is the favorite show-project for americans.. pity

[sliver]

No hte ship seems not to be build to be ussed as transporter of humanitarian aid..It simply a spy and war ship..so it not so inocent.
lavuun

yep )
btw, zorro and huney, don't you think that it was 'trying on' iran from the black sea?

[sliver]

Burt Sever
Why do you think it was wrong for the US ( and other countries) to peacefully push for regime change , as they undoubtedly did in both Georgia and Ukraine .
One of the only points of living is to try and improve oneself and others --- both materially and from a moral and ethical stance .

and what's the result of pushing regimes?

war in georgia and 3-4% rating of ukrainian president?

[sliver]

>>>that's funny you love obama and he is arrogant***


Isn't it McCain and his wife that are worth more than $100 million. Money his wife inherited.

Barack Obama and his wife are self-made. I believe in his innate intelligence. I guess it's a good reason to feel himself arrogant towards opponents ;)

Russian say: слово – не воробей, вылетит – не поймаешь (the word isn't a sparrow. if it flies out it isn’t caught back).. So..I did 'love' Freudian slip of McCain adviser Charlie Black's: a terrorist attack would benefit McCain. It reminds me of Nixon's wistful line years ago, when the generation gap was new, and he exploited the law-and-order issue after the Chicago riots: "What this country needs is a good war."