BBC nails Russia for starting war

[Lucker]

Bellas Topic quoting a Russia printed article is a total fabrication
I watched the programme and the evidence showing Russia to have provoked and started the war was compelling and overwhelming
Lavrov admitted also that Russians stood by as insurgents created nearly 40 000 refugees by burning every "Georgian " building in South Ossetia to the ground
Russian propaganda at its worst

[Neilikka]

Why do you think it's propaganda but that programme you have seen isn't? I believe my eyes and ears. Do you?

[Neilikka]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/7695956.stm

This video is given here. It's BBC cyannel of information, notrussian

[Lucker]

Why do you think it's propaganda but that programme you have seen isn't? I believe my eyes and ears. Do you?

You talk as though there are two films or versions or reports .
I watched the programme last night which the Moscow Times article purports to summarise .
The only thing that is true is that the Russians rolled out the same story we have heard since August 8th .
Because they repeated things for the millionth time , it does not make them true .
Particularly as Film , Video , E- mails , Humanitarian Group reports and Russian soldier interviews all point one way . Completely the opposite .

[Neilikka]

Sorry for my spelling mistakes. I have just come from work, tired to death. Kisses!

[Neilikka]

But the article isn't from Moscow News, it's from my favourite blog. And the video is from
Newsnight BBC two. Don't you believe even them? Who do you believe then?

[Lucker]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/7695956.stm

This video is given here. It's BBC cyannel of information, notrussian

Why would I watch it when I watched it as it was transmitted ?
It contained a great deal of misinformation from the Russians and if I thought people were interested I could take you through the whole matter in the smallest detail .
Privately , I actually wager I have more information about the total war than the reporter has and by a considerable margin .

[Neilikka]

Oh! Really? It's getting exciting! Who are you, Mr X?

[Neilikka]

I should confess, I have been intriqued greately and I can't sleep properly since I found out that you visited the USSR in 70s, Ramon, oh, please, tell me privately what you were doing there and then?

[Lucker]

Never a problem . My remarks are never personal , as you know .
You covered a very interesting report which I had read earlier .
I decided not to raise it myself as I had visions of the YRWM returning and Jurassic laying into me like a demented Harpy .
Still , if it interests anyone -- which I doubt --- I can play punch bag !!

[IamKeenan]

Oh! Really? It's getting exciting! Who are you, Mr X?

you know Rusanna if you want to divorce me and marry Ramon I will give you one. Besides I think you will have a lasting romance as Mr. X and Mrs. Propaganda.:lol

[IamKeenan]

I should confess, I have been intriqued greately and I can't sleep properly since I found out that you visited the USSR in 70s, Ramon, oh, please, tell me privately what you were doing there and then?



I know what he was doing there, he was trying to find the ''Truth'' he finally gave up and went home!!!

[dzerassa]

Russians stood by as insurgents created nearly 40 000 refugees by burning every "Georgian " building in South Ossetia to the ground


romashka, as i see u r too stubborn to learn. let's start from the beginning then.

what "every" georgian house? u mean geogian villages?
romashka, these villages suffered 'cause the georgian soldiers (or call them police if u like) were invading from there as well and they had loads of weapons there and shooting from there so the fight was there with the georgian soldiers actually who made these villages their base area for attacking tshinval.

as for the civilians, they left their houses on the eve of the war but i can assume that many of the georgian villagers-men were among those soldiers fighting against ossetians. and ossetians knew it.

[dzerassa]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/7695956.stm

This video is given here. It's BBC cyannel of information, notrussian

марина, спасибо за видео.

[dzerassa]

and by the way, the talk of the "two ossetians" on the tape given as proof sounded like they deliberately repeated clear and loud who was passing, where, how many, on what, etc. people usually talk so when they want others to hear them clear with no misunderstanding.

the fact that they spoke ossetian says nothing, there r still ethnic ossetias in georgia, some even in georgian army i assume.

and yes, to wait 1 month before giving your "evidence". ridiculous.

[Lucker]

I am afraid it takes considerable time -- as you should well know -- to gather all information from all independent sources --- let alone to assemble courts to investigate alleged Russian war crimes .
I am not prepared to rehash matters as you have never read the Georgian time frame or the reports from International Human Right Organisations . I doubt you have even watched the BBC programme , for if you had , you would have noted that your Mister Lavrov admitted that all Georgians had been thrown out of SO by the simple method of burning every building to the ground . Perthaps you could chat with your Foreign Minister and come up with one story , however absurd it might be .
When you produce your story , bear in mind that there are over 40,000 displaced people now in Georgia who all amazingly have exactly the same story .
In fact , the same story as Lavrov , who realised his previous lies made Russia look a disgrace .

After that , I could go on and tell you that Russia has broken virtually every subsequent promise and is in the process of moving in about 30 000 Russians -- the vast majority of whom are soldiers . And be careful before you dispute this because these figures are available from Russian official releases , if you know where to look .

[dzerassa]

[QUOTE=ramonrive;25680 I doubt you have even watched the BBC programme , for if you had , you would have noted that your Mister Lavrov admitted that all Georgians had been thrown out of SO by the simple method of burning every building to the ground . [/QUOTE]

i did watch it from marina's link. do u mean this programme?
lavrov said "when people's relatives, children, sisters killed people can go emotional".
try to stop a crowd, romashka.

before he said that those villages were not cleansed, there was fighting in it. he is right. didn't i say the same? by the way, i wrote my post before i watched the video, so i didn't repeat his words.

the villages were places where georgians fighted ossetians. that was a war and concequence of war. i never heard any number of murdered civilian georgians in those villages. u will probably not find this number 'cause there is no any. those who died were fighters, the civilians left before the attack leaving some very old people in the villages. those old people were protected by ossetian officials in order not to let relatives of the died ossetians get to them. later those georgian people were brought to gori.
but in general even before the actual war some those villages were negative towards ossetians and didn't let use the short road which was passing through their villages. they gave their villages as a place for killing ossetians and u want simple ossetians (not authorities, not officials, not army) forget it? i will tell u one story. in the village of my mom which was occupied by the facists during the WWII there was a traitor. he reported on many people: partizans, communists, etc. after soviet army liberated he was sentenced to imprisonment. after he returned from prison, he came to his village. then his house was burnt. he started construction of a new house, it was again burnt. he had to move to another area of ossetia where people didn't know what he has done.

i don't say it is good or bad but it is caucasus.

[dzerassa]

After that , I could go on and tell you that Russia has broken virtually every subsequent promise and is in the process of moving in about 30 000 Russians -- the vast majority of whom are soldiers . And be careful before you dispute this because these figures are available from Russian official releases , if you know where to look .

moving in where? in south ossetia? when? now? i have no idea how many soldiers have been or now in south ossetia. i hope as many as possible. and u know what? i am happy russia is a country protecting its allies.

[Lucker]

moving in where? in south ossetia? when? now? i have no idea how many soldiers have been or now in south ossetia. i hope as many as possible. and u know what? i am happy russia is a country protecting its allies.



Oh Dear
Haven't they given out information yet on the TV ?
Never mind . We will give you all you need to know and as a bonus it will be the correct information .

[dzerassa]

We will give you all you need to know and as a bonus it will be the correct information .

Do u usually give correct information only as a bonus :)

[Lucker]

My Bonuses are very private matters .

[dzerassa]

My Bonuses are very private matters .

as well as the correction information obviously, 'cause what u post in public is ...mmm not quite correct :)

[Lucker]

Don't try to twist my words .
Its what's called pushing your luck .
Remember , there are many Gennady Petrov's in Moscow !!!

[snow_flake]

Oh Dear
Haven't they given out information yet on the TV ?
Never mind . We will give you all you need to know and as a bonus it will be the correct information .


hahahahahahahhaha:peace:

[Mata Xari]

пока вы тут о политике спорите, всех рашин невест расхватают, l even if you are paid for comments, please, never forget your private life should be a priority.

guys, u d better look whats happens to old boys who argue a lot!

nVKV_ziBdH4

[Lucker]

Thank you but we are not arguing
I am simply highlighting matters which represent a much more truthful version of events .
I am slowly showing you how your system and the Family actually treat you like slaves .

[Mata Xari]

Thank you but we are not arguing
I am simply highlighting matters which represent a much more truthful version of events .
I am slowly showing you how your system and the Family actually treat you like slaves .

We truly appreciate your care, but….

None is more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free (Johann Wolfgang Goethe 1749-1832)

Did you ever think that your government could trick your mind the same way?
New generation of younger people had lots more chances to have world wide education, be educated in foreign countries, see the world and compare lives and standards, moreover youths had much less chances to be dominated by only one source, as the sources now are very open and widely available….means it is easier for you, being the product of old times and Cold war propaganda influence to be blind accepting only one point of view…cant that be true? Through we all admit , your experience and opinions are very valuable, cause you highlight the bad sights of any goverment

[Lucker]

[QUOTE=Mata Xari;26269]We truly appreciate your care, but….

None is more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free (Johann Wolfgang Goethe 1749-1832)

Did you ever think that your government could trick your mind the same way?



Of course we think it and of course it happens occasionally .
We ( I ) are not unthinking , brainwashed idiots .
There are times when Governments need to be economic with the truth for there is never anything more stupid than their own citizens ---- i.e. people .
However , when the uaual arguments are over and the standard jokes have been aired , we all need to agree ways to keep the bastards our appointed masters and not us as disposable slaves .
Our History and the length of time we have been lucky enough to practise the Democratic ideal , makes us excellent role models .
So kneel , slaves . !!!!!!!!!!!!! Let the lessons commence .

[pavement23]

ever government use lies and misinformation to keep people blinded and under control. It is just to what extent this is used. As far as I see it, British say their press it the most neuteral, Russians say theirs, Yanks theirs.

I say read them all and find a middle ground, though I do stand by the BBC, but I am biased being English.

Having spent time in all these countries, I see none as telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The truth is seen differently depending where you stand.

[Mata Xari]

Our History and the length of time we have been lucky enough to practise the Democratic ideal , makes us excellent role models .


You, obviously, being British, speak about the British experience of practicing the Democratic Ideal...am I right?

British colonial history full of sad pictures of the violation of human rights and picture the slavery but that is smth ancient, so we sincerely hope your democratic ideals has tremendously grown sine that time

But what do you think about the UK territorial claims in Latin America around the Falkland Islands? In the 80s UK even had military conflict with Argentina about these territories. And now again your government being in need to protect the recently proclaimed right for energy security , says the 200 miles zone around the islands should be now 350 miles zone and this right will be protected by the UK navy if needed. You don’t have enough resources in the 200 miles zone around the UK island? That is called democracy – just go and take a piece somewhere else?


And by the way, it is well known that the UK-Ireland conflict has 900 years history , and seems so Irish very much doubt British Democracy. Irish Republican movement started being very active after the execution of the leaders in 1916 ( seems so the same time in Russia we had revolution, not much of difference in methods) This caused the horrifying activity of the IRA. The commission created in 1926 to sole territorial dispute was trying to hide from publicity the truths, but French press, always being interested in working against UK government, somehow brought the documents of the commission into the public discussion, highlighting the scary methods UK government wanted to use in this “dispute solving”. That cause crisis in UK government. In 70s, in 80s huge mass rioting had place constantly , terrorism as resistance and a way to fight the UK government also was growing. To cope with that UK government took some very not democratic actions violating the existing laws. The practice of administrative detention without charge was widely used. In Soviet Union this practice stopped with the end of Stalins era. Very long and hard story of negotiations with Irish had one last huge mass riot in 1998 , 29 men were killed, and finally only in 2000 the North Ireland got independence from the central UK government.
In Russia the last mass riot took place in 1991, when Elzin dismissed Gorbachev. 3 men were killed.

Ofcourse, I admit UK historically had less wars on the territory of the island, usually military actions were always held outside the main Island, away from the country which could use this chance of peace to be productive. Russia has always been in the centre of cross roads of economic interests which historically have cause wars and conflicts of the groups of economic interest. Have you heard the statement of madam Olbrait, who said that “ it is not fair that Russia alone owns the territory of Siberia”? Is that also an example of democratic statement, the same as UK’s wish to make it 350 miles around Falkland’s taking away a piece from Argentina?

[pavement23]

You, obviously, being British, speak about the British experience of practicing the Democratic Ideal...am I right?

British colonial history full of sad pictures of the violation of human rights and picture the slavery but that is smth ancient, so we sincerely hope your democratic ideals has tremendously grown sine that time

But what do you think about the UK territorial claims in Latin America around the Falkland Islands? In the 80s UK even had military conflict with Argentina about these territories. And now again your government being in need to protect the recently proclaimed right for energy security , says the 200 miles zone around the islands should be now 350 miles zone and this right will be protected by the UK navy if needed. You don’t have enough resources in the 200 miles zone around the UK island? That is called democracy – just go and take a piece somewhere else?


And by the way, it is well known that the UK-Ireland conflict has 900 years history , and seems so Irish very much doubt British Democracy. Irish Republican movement started being very active after the execution of the leaders in 1916 ( seems so the same time in Russia we had revolution, not much of difference in methods) This caused the horrifying activity of the IRA. The commission created in 1926 to sole territorial dispute was trying to hide from publicity the truths, but French press, always being interested in working against UK government, somehow brought the documents of the commission into the public discussion, highlighting the scary methods UK government wanted to use in this “dispute solving”. That cause crisis in UK government. In 70s, in 80s huge mass rioting had place constantly , terrorism as resistance and a way to fight the UK government also was growing. To cope with that UK government took some very not democratic actions violating the existing laws. The practice of administrative detention without charge was widely used. In Soviet Union this practice stopped with the end of Stalins era. Very long and hard story of negotiations with Irish had one last huge mass riot in 1998 , 29 men were killed, and finally only in 2000 the North Ireland got independence from the central UK government.
In Russia the last mass riot took place in 1991, when Elzin dismissed Gorbachev. 3 men were killed.

Ofcourse, I admit UK historically had less wars on the territory of the island, usually military actions were always held outside the main Island, away from the country which could use this chance of peace to be productive. Russia has always been in the centre of cross roads of economic interests which historically have cause wars and conflicts of the groups of economic interest. Have you heard the statement of madam Olbrait, who said that “ it is not fair that Russia alone owns the territory of Siberia”? Is that also an example of democratic statement, the same as UK’s wish to make it 350 miles around Falkland’s taking away a piece from Argentina?


I think you will find we have had many conflicts in our country, we were not always a "Untied Kingdom" This came about through much internal conflicts..... ask Hoopy as a Scots man!!!

Though I have to agree with you about what is left of out "Empire". We have not always been in the right, but this does not stop us pointing out when others are wrong!

[dzerassa]

Did any american forum members read the article in New York Times which is diecsribed here? is it possible to read it in electronic version?




American journalists have refuted version of the Georgian leadership of the start of the war in the South Osetii

The attack on the Georgian South Ossetia was not a response to the mythical "aggression" Moscow - the justice of this claim in the West, as it turned out, is still regarded as a sensation.

Appeared in The New York Times article, where American journalists questioned the first version of the Georgian leadership of the start of the war in South Ossetia, was for public opinion USA this event. Only a few months after the August assault on Tskhinvali overseas press was prepared to look into the causes of the tragic events occurred. And the conclusions that the authors of articles suggested that his readers are substantially different from both the official position of Tbilisi, as well as statements from the American gosdepa.

In a journalists' New York Times have been reporting data OSCE military observers serving in the conflict zone at the time of its inception. According to their testimony, the Georgian army attacked the capital of South Ossetia indiscriminate artillery and rocket fire. As a result, affected civilians, Russian peacekeepers and unarmed international observers. "This raises the question of honesty Georgian side, so insistently talking about inflicting blows to the point yugoosetinskoy capital", - stated in the article.

Journalists' New York Times found many inconsistencies and contradictions in statements by Georgian authorities. "President Mikhail Saakashvili described the attack as vysokotochnuyu and defensive operations. No 7 and 8 August, observers have recorded that Georgian artillery shells and rockets fell on the city at intervals of 15-20 seconds and that for the first hour bombings in the residential sector fell at least 48 shells. Observers also said they had not found evidence of massive shelling of the evening the same day, Georgian villages. thereby called into question one of the main messages that justify an attack Saakashvili - such examples are the authors of articles in support of his words.

Commenting on the shelling of Tskhinvali, the Georgians said Western diplomats that the Ossetians hid weapons in the homes of civilians, and this makes them legitimate targets. "Georgians quite clearly stated that the fire sites - town hall, the police department - which were used for military purposes", - said Matthew Bryza, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and one of the hot supporters of Saakashvili in Washington.

However, none of these allegations were not confirmed by independent sources. But the Georgian version of events challenged Ryan Grist, a former British army captain and the chief representative of the OSCE in Georgia at the time the war began. "It was obvious that the strikes is applied indiscriminately and were disproportionate to any provocation, even if it took place - he said. - In my opinion, the purpose of this attack was the city itself."

Incidentally, a lot of criticism for the situation in South Ossetia Grist - after retirement - hit their former heads of the OSCE. According to him, the leadership of the organization knew about the forthcoming aggression Georgia long before Tbilisi began storming Tskhinvali. "I talked about this at a briefing for ambassadors of countries - members of the OSCE, but at a higher diplomatic level, obviously not followed the situation" - lamented Grist. According to the former officer, his reports of military activity have not been heard Georgian leadership of OSCE.

Georgian officials denied the information published in The New York Times, and called on Western leaders not to take them into account. But excuse Tbilisi does not sound too convincing. Thus, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Georgia, Giga Bokeria, in response to allegations of observers one of the most authoritative international organizations just tried not too good joke: "Who is it believed the explosions? It sounds a bit strange." But in Moscow on statements by the representatives of OSCE were received with satisfaction. As the deputy head of Foreign Affairs of Russia Grigory Karasin, they reflect the "true course of events that preceded the Georgian aggression."

The authors of the article in The New York Times believe that the conclusions of experts put the U.S. in a very difficult position. On the one hand, Washington has for many years supported all initiatives Saakashvili. On the other hand, the U.S. has always taken the conclusions of the OSCE and praised the organization for the professionalism. Now the administration White House was in disarray. This is evidenced, for example, the recent statement by Matthew Bryza, who declined to comment on "inconvenient" Records observers. "I was not there - he explained. - It was not our people. But the OSCE did for many years served as a guide for us."

[dzerassa]

Enjoy it

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5114401.ece

[dzerassa]

SU38utyK03c&feature=related

[dzerassa]

SU38utyK03c&feature=related

[Lucker]

Oh Jurassic ,
You can't expect to show You Tube snippets to argue a case -- whichever way you want to argue or whichever side you want to argue for.
For you or any other other person or organisation to white wash Russia , you need to demolish these killing facts .

1 August 3rd .Russian media outlets report the large scale mobilisation of "volunteers " right across the Russian North Causasus , including pledges from Cossacks and Chechens to deploy mercenary troops into Georgia

2 August 4th . The Separatists announced the evacuation of the civilian population from Tskhinvali and from the region's separatist controlled villages . This is the most damning evidence as Camps for thousands of people had already been completed in North Ossetia.

3.August 7th , Russia launches 150 armoured vehicles and military trucks of the regular Army Forces into the Roki Valley .

Russia refuses to give the time that this movement began because they know it signalled the start of the big military action and completely condemns their assertion that first Georgia started bombing Tskhinvali . Georgia counter attacked once the Russians went through the tunnel and started ethnically displacing all Georgians from the valley .

The rest is all details relatively , and are matters that followed after these key points lthat I have detailed
You can Huff and Puff for the next 10 years but until you can demolish just these three matters , your case is hopeless .

[Lucker]

Have you run out of Puff , Jurassic ?

[dzerassa]

Oh Jurassic ,
You can't expect to show You Tube snippets to argue a case -- whichever way you want to argue or whichever side you want to argue for.
For you or any other other person or organisation to white wash Russia , you need to demolish these killing facts .

1 August 3rd .Russian media outlets report the large scale mobilisation of "volunteers " right across the Russian North Causasus , including pledges from Cossacks and Chechens to deploy mercenary troops into Georgia

2 August 4th . The Separatists announced the evacuation of the civilian population from Tskhinvali and from the region's separatist controlled villages . This is the most damning evidence as Camps for thousands of people had already been completed in North Ossetia.

3.August 7th , Russia launches 150 armoured vehicles and military trucks of the regular Army Forces into the Roki Valley .

Russia refuses to give the time that this movement began because they know it signalled the start of the big military action and completely condemns their assertion that first Georgia started bombing Tskhinvali . Georgia counter attacked once the Russians went through the tunnel and started ethnically displacing all Georgians from the valley .

The rest is all details relatively , and are matters that followed after these key points lthat I have detailed
You can Huff and Puff for the next 10 years but until you can demolish just these three matters , your case is hopeless .

you case is completely hopeless. u simply missed the article in sundytime? read it and read what uk ocse officers say. as for the three matters which seem to u such a "proof" i answered them many times. probably u need to read some earlier topics on it.

[dzerassa]

An article from The Independent

Romashka, Hoopy, Beez enjoy it :)

Mary Dejevsky: Why did the West ignore the truth about the war in Georgia?[/B]

[B]The US and UK left the impression that Russia was the guilty party

Thank goodness, they might be thinking at the US State Department and the British Foreign Office, for the financial crisis. Were it not for the ever-blacker news about the Western world's economy, another scandal would be vying for the headlines – and one where the blame would be easier to apportion. It concerns our two countries' relations with Russia and the truth about this summer's Georgia-Russia war.

Over the past couple of weeks, a spate of reports has appeared in the American and British media, questioning many assumptions about that war, chief among them that Russia was the guilty party. Journalists from the BBC, The New York Times and Canada's Embassy magazine, among others, travelled to South Ossetia, the region at the centre of the conflict, in an effort to establish the facts.

Not the "facts" as told by the super-slick Georgian PR machine at the time, nor the "facts" as eventually dragged from the hyper-defensive and clod-hopping communicators of the Kremlin. But the facts as experienced on the ground by those who were there: civilians, the local military commander, and the small number of unarmed monitors stationed in the region by the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

The journalists travelled to the region separately and by different routes. They spoke to different people. But their findings are consistent: Georgia launched an indiscriminate military assault on South Ossetia's main town, Tskhinvali. The hospital was among the buildings attacked; doctors were injured even as they operated.

The timing of the Georgian attack, as of the arrival of the first Russian reinforcements two days later, coincides for the most part with the original Russian version. It was only then that the Russians crossed into Georgia proper in the invasion of sovereign territory that has been universally decried. For the record, it should be added that Russia has now withdrawn from uncontested Georgian territory, in accordance with the agreement mediated by President Sarkozy.

Now you could argue – and the State Department and the Foreign Office have done pretty much from the start – that it really does not matter who started the war; there had long been provocations on both sides and the priority was bringing hostilities to an end. You could also argue – more plausibly – that while Russia might have had a case at the start, it put itself in the wrong by applying excessive force and then recognising South Ossetia and Abkhazia as independent.

But surely it does matter, crucially, how this conflict began. It matters legally and morally. And it is bound, rightly so, to affect how we view the two countries concerned. Yet the general fuzziness of official US and British accounts left the impression that Russia was the guilty party, and Georgia a brave little democracy that big bad Russia wanted to snuff out. Not only did this version gain almost instantaneous acceptance, but it was almost impossible for Russia to contest, confirming as it did every existing negative stereotype.

What has now transpired, however, is that the US and Britain had no excuse for not knowing how the war began. They were briefed by the OSCE monitors at a very early stage, and those monitors included two highly experienced former British Army officers.

So why were British and US officials so cagey about acknowledging, or perhaps even believing, what had really happened? Why did the Conservative leader, David Cameron, rush to Tbilisi to support Georgia as the unquestioned victim? And why – except to trump Mr Cameron – did the Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, give a tub-thumping speech in Kiev shortly afterwards that perpetuated the impression (without actually using the words) that the war was all about Moscow's supposed ambition to reconstitute its empire?

Was it ignorance? Or was it rather ideological blindness? Did they choose not to acknowledge the unreliability of their Georgian protégé, lest it discredit their whole project for spreading democracy and recruiting allies among former Soviet republics? It is only now, three months on, that either Mr Miliband or US officials have brought themselves to describe Georgia's action as "reckless".

Actions, though, tell another story. Earlier this week, Britain quietly lifted its objections to the start of EU talks on a new partnership treaty with Russia – talks that it, almost alone, had held up in sympathy with Georgia. So the latest bout of official harrumphing against Russia would seem to be over. Ill-feeling in Moscow, though, will persist, until someone in London or Washington concedes how badly they got the Russia-Georgia war wrong.

m.dejevsky@independent.co.uk

[Lucker]

I read the article when it was published and of course the opinions of two people are in themselves of little or no consequence .
Certainly they are entirely irrelevant to the points I made in my last Post which , naturally , you totally ignored .

Far more interesting is your inability to read and interpret releases which are the life blood of Politicians , Diplomats and State Security Services .
They are coded and act as signals .
If you look at the biger picture , Jurassic , note the timing most carefully and think strategically , you will then see the hidden messages contained in the release .
You are trying to dot " i's " and cross " t's " but missing the entire sub-text .

[Hoopy]

Dzerassa you ask us to read the opinions of 2 people(these are only opinions) and change our views when on several occasions,in fact almost everytime,when we say something and back it up with lots of evidence you choose to totally ignore it and post some trivial things like that youtube posting.It bears no relevance at all to facts.

[dzerassa]

romashka and hoopy, i didn't post JUST opinion of two people. their opinions r based on the evidence from two british officers who have been working in georgia and south ossetia in ocse office there before and in the time when the war started.

so my dear friends, these officers know the facts and i didn't give u facts provided by russians or georgians, these people r british officers and unlike both of u they have been there.

and it is u who ingnore those evidence which don't come in the line with your understanding of those events.

u have an opinion a priori.

as for youtube, i gave it just as a fun to show that many of the "facts" r not facts as such.

[Hoopy]

Dzerrassa there is more evidence in writing and facts against Russia, S.O and Abkhazia for ethnic cleansing than there is for any claims against Georgia.
Why Did an army that can hardly get things to work on new machines never mind general use ones manage to have all those working tanks so close,oh of course..they were in their base and we all know how much Russian army spend fixing their machines to a high working standard.

Did Russia bribe them to say that? (http://finchannel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24157&Itemid=43)

2 embassy views. (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/opinion/l13caucasus.html)
Here's 2 interesting quotes from it.Only Georgia has relentlessly called since August for an international investigation into the war’s origins — and has offered access to every piece of evidence and every witness, even as Russia continues to occupy Georgian territory.
Moreover, human rights observers have documented the systematic targeting of ethnic Georgians by Russian forces and Russia-backed militia groups.

Delaying tactics hurt Georgia monitoring - OSCE (http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-36471320081112)

[dzerassa]

Dzerrassa there is more evidence in writing and facts against Russia, S.O and Abkhazia for ethnic cleansing than there is for any claims against Georgia.



it's not true, ossetians were cleansed in 1990-ies in internal parts of geogia, i know many people who escaped from there, ossetia had up to 100 000 refugees from georgia and south ossetia within several years. u should learn more on it.


[B][COLOR="Green"]
Why Did an army that can hardly get things to work on new machines never mind general use ones manage to have all those working tanks so close,oh of course..they were in their base and we all know how much Russian army spend fixing their machines to a high working standard.



i don't understand this sarcastic tone. russian army was located on russian territory which borders south ossetia. russian tanks came to tshinval after 2 days. dear hoopy, 2 days ossetians were dieing under grad shelling and people were thinking that russia betrayed ossetia, only after first russian soldiers appeared in tshinval people realised they r not abandoned. first days tshinval was defended by ossetians, not by ossetian army which doesn't really exist as such but by simple civilian people who took guns to defend their motherland. i think u being a man would do the same if your country would be invaded. but of course these people could not fight with jets, tanks and helicopters. russia did it and saved ossetia from total destruction.




Did Russia bribe them to say that? (http://finchannel.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=24157&Itemid=43)




i am shocked by this statement. u question words of british officers just 'cause they r not the ones u like to hear? i understand why georgian authorities may suppose of someone being bribed if he is not supporting an official version, the only thing they can oppose to the facts of the british officers is to say they have been bribed. they can not bring facts aginst facts. just allegations against facts.

by the way the guy mentioned in the this article jakoboshvili is the one who banned all russian chanels in georgia, guess why? 'cause as he said they don't say the truth. it means that the georgian population was allowed to listen to only one truth coming from georgian and western media. democracy.

[dzerassa]

Only Georgia has relentlessly called since August for an international investigation into the war’s origins — and has offered access to every piece of evidence and every witness, even as Russia continues to occupy Georgian territory



it's not true that only georgia called for investigation and it was actually russia who called the UN security council when georgia invaded south ossetia. it wasn't georgia's initiative. why georgia didn't call security council if it was a victim?

georgia offered access everywhere, ok. but do u know how many visited south ossetia, jornalists, deputies of parliaments, etc. ossetia WANTS them to come and see but the truth is that most of the jornalists r interested only in proofs against russia, they don't want to see another side of the story.

and these quotes u give r words of a georgian politician. i gave u link to the words of british officers. choose whom to beleive

[Hoopy]

Dzerassa that topic that Ramon and me discussed about Abkhazia
http://www.gogabber.com/showthread.php?t=1224
This was a British journalist there and clearly showed what was happening but you say it's all western lies.
Facts are something that can't be argued with and so far all the facts point to Russia as the aggressor.

i am shocked by this statement. u question words of british officers just 'cause they r not the ones u like to hear?I was writing what that article said.

[dzerassa]

Dzerassa that topic that Ramon and me discussed about Abkhazia
http://www.gogabber.com/showthread.php?t=1224
This was a British journalist there and clearly showed what was happening but you say it's all western lies.
Facts are something that can't be argued with and so far all the facts point to Russia as the aggressor.

so u think that the british officers who were IN south ossetia that moment lie?

[Lucker]

Jurassic ,
Why don't you go to my last Post and read it ?
Do we have to spell out everything to you ?

[dzerassa]

Jurassic ,
Why don't you go to my last Post and read it ?
Do we have to spell out everything to you ?

romashka, your posts i read very attentively, even several times :)

[sliver]

romashka, your posts i read very attentively, even several times :)

nonna, thanks for "romashka" :becky::thumbsup:

[Lucker]

Jurassic , Given your kind comment , let me throw this thought at you .

For purposes of discussion , let us put the argument about " who" started "what" on one side .
Instead , let us think about one or two new news or pseudo news releases where the US and the UK have apparently adopted a softer line of dialogue .
What do we make of that ?

Let's suppose that these two powers want to signal a change in possible strategy.
How would they do it in the language of Diplomacy ?

More importantly , why would they do it ?
Russia's overall economic position is looking increasingly precarious . Even though your State reserves still stand above $450 billion , the whole sum is exceeded by short term repayment requirements . Putin released $50 billion a few hours ago to bail out immediate needs of key companies ( all run by Oligarch mates and all covering key Russian base industries ).And the Oil price has become an impending tragedy for Russia .
However , it is in the interests of the Free world that Russia does not go under . Inter back loans and finances are linked inextricably on a global basis .
We all sink or swim together !!
The other main reason is the Obama effect . New discussion and action strategies are now possible which were absolutely impossible under Republicanism .
Also the EU and Russia are meeting in the next few days to discuss routes which could signal partnerships at some near future date .And , in detail , we want concessions in trade matters -- timber exports is one matter where Russia has been thinking about hefty export tax increases .It looks ( Hot of the Press ) that such increases could be modified or deferred .
Possibly the US does not want incidents in the Black Sea or Ukraine
Therefore , for the moment , Georgia is expendable for the greater picture .

The simple fact , Jurassic , is that there is hardly anyone remaining who cares less about the war details .
The only people who are interested are Historians -- whatever their background - and strange people like Hoppy and myself .
This does not change my position one iota .
I am simply suggesting to you that the name of the game has changed and you have to realise that both sides have to be seen to be giving each other concessions so that overall progress in other areas might be looked at .
You have to be a combination of wolf , snake and Chess Grand Master to play the game

[dzerassa]

nonna, thanks for "romashka" :becky::thumbsup:

isn't he sweet as romashka ?:)

[dzerassa]

Jurassic , Given your kind comment , let me throw this thought at you .

For purposes of discussion , let us put the argument about " who" started "what" on one side .
Instead , let us think about one or two new news or pseudo news releases where the US and the UK have apparently adopted a softer line of dialogue .
What do we make of that ?

Let's suppose that these two powers want to signal a change in possible strategy.
How would they do it in the language of Diplomacy ?

More importantly , why would they do it ?
Russia's overall economic position is looking increasingly precarious . Even though your State reserves still stand above $450 billion , the whole sum is exceeded by short term repayment requirements . Putin released $50 billion a few hours ago to bail out immediate needs of key companies ( all run by Oligarch mates and all covering key Russian base industries ).And the Oil price has become an impending tragedy for Russia .
However , it is in the interests of the Free world that Russia does not go under . Inter back loans and finances are linked inextricably on a global basis .
We all sink or swim together !!
The other main reason is the Obama effect . New discussion and action strategies are now possible which were absolutely impossible under Republicanism .
Also the EU and Russia are meeting in the next few days to discuss routes which could signal partnerships at some near future date .And , in detail , we want concessions in trade matters -- timber exports is one matter where Russia has been thinking about hefty export tax increases .It looks ( Hot of the Press ) that such increases could be modified or deferred .
Possibly the US does not want incidents in the Black Sea or Ukraine
Therefore , for the moment , Georgia is expendable for the greater picture .

The simple fact , Jurassic , is that there is hardly anyone remaining who cares less about the war details .
The only people who are interested are Historians -- whatever their background - and strange people like Hoppy and myself .
This does not change my position one iota .
I am simply suggesting to you that the name of the game has changed and you have to realise that both sides have to be seen to be giving each other concessions so that overall progress in other areas might be looked at .
You have to be a combination of wolf , snake and Chess Grand Master to play the game

i got completely confused

[Lucker]

Take you time
It'snot a race or competition .

[sliver]

Please look through the comments to the article. They are much more interesting, IMHO
http://community.nytimes.com/article/comments/2008/11/07/world/europe/07georgia.html

[dzerassa]

Please look through the comments to the article. They are much more interesting, IMHO
http://community.nytimes.com/article/comments/2008/11/07/world/europe/07georgia.html


i didn't know that so many people in usa support us :)
thanks guys :)

[sliver]

Reckless Georgia
November 11, 2008

Which is why Obama should take note of emerging accounts about the beginning of the war from seasoned monitors sponsored by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. Those monitors, who were on the ground in the breakaway region of South Ossetia when hostilities commenced the night of Aug. 7, reported seeing Georgian artillery and rocket launchers assembling just outside South Ossetia at 3 p.m. that day, well before any Russian convoy had crossed into the enclave.

They also observed unprovoked shelling of South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali, that night. The shells were falling on civilians huddled in their homes. And the monitors heard nothing that would confirm Saakashvili's claim that Georgian artillery attacks on Tskhinvali were in response to the shelling of ethnic Georgian villages.

There is no reason to doubt the competence or honesty of the OSCE monitors. The inescapable conclusion is that Saakashvili started the war and lied about it. The Kremlin may have done its part to provoke Georgia over a period of time - and its reaction to the Georgian attacks was deliberately harsh - but that is no excuse for Saakashvili allowing himself to be provoked.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/editorials/articles/2008/11/11/reckless_georgia/


As Mr. Gergiev said in his interview for NY Times: “I’m not celebrating this. Sooner or later the truth comes out.”

.. as well as in Iraq there is no devil weapons.. there simply is oil there )

[sliver]

i didn't know that so many people in usa support us :)
thanks guys :)

i guess they are not too many, but yes, it's great that adequate and smart guys exist :)

[Lucker]

You girls are really naive or just being wilfully blind and deaf .

[dzerassa]

You girls are really naive or just being wilfully blind and deaf .

or we simply live here and know the truth :)

[Lucker]

The two parts of your sentence are logically incompatible !!
Come on , Jurassic .
Cut out the nationalistic crap and lets tell the truth to each other .
Do you really believe you ever get the truth in any of your major newspapersor or state controlled TV channels ?
Your country is right now poised on the edge of bankruptcy ?
Are you aware of that ?
I am not saying you will go bankrupt . But I am saying that Europe is technically in recession ( as is most of the rest of the world) but Russia is in a dangerously worse position .
Your leaders are fiddling like Nero did when Rome burned . Putin is mumbling and bumbling about missiles in Kalingrad and extra tariffs on lumber exports .
Is he blind and wilfully stupid? Or is it those who let him bully them as serfs who are the real culprets.

[sliver]

You girls are really naive or just being wilfully blind and deaf .

oh yeah, sure, we're blind.. i see, you like to get info from 'the first hands' (from saaka)))..
darling, we lived in ussr yet and learned to differ info and misinfo...
ok, one more article, now from BusinessWeek


The Russia-Georgia War Revisited

Posted by: Jason Bush on November 10

So much has happened in the last few weeks that the war between Russia and Georgia already seems like a distant memory. Today, it’s hard to remember that just three months ago, the world was worrying not about the future of the global economy, but about the bloodshed in the Caucasus and the possibility of a new Cold War.

But not everyone has forgotten about the war in Georgia. In the months since the conflict, international monitors, journalists and human rights activists have been quietly piecing together what really happened last August. And their conclusions offer a strikingly different interpretation of events from the one that was popular with most western commentators at the time.

Recent reports from the region suggest that as the dust settles and the true facts emerge, a far more nuanced understanding of events is now beginning to emerge.

In a hard-hitting television documentary, BBC journalist Tim Whewell visited South Ossetia to find out what really happened during the war. Eyewitnesses interviewed by Whewell allege that Georgian tanks and artillery deliberately fired on civilian apartments, and even attacked refugees attempting to flee the conflict. The BBC notes that if these allegations are true, such actions constitute war crimes and a violation of the Geneva Convention.

Georgia’s President Saakashvilli has rejected the allegations. But the BBC isn't the only western voice now questioning the honesty of Georgian accounts.

The BBC cites figures from Human Rights Watch, a US-based non-governmental organization, which now estimates that between 300 and 400 South Ossetian civilians were killed in the Georgian attack. Human Rights Watch has recently denied claims, widely propagated in the western media and on the internet at the time, that it originally estimated the number of civilians killed in South Ossetia at just 44. The Russian government says it has so far identified the names of 365 citizens killed in the Georgian attack.

The BBC also investigated claims, made repeatedly by Georgia’s President Saakashvili, that Georgia launched its offensive only after Russian troops crossed the frontier in force. In common with other independent researchers, including the Institute for War and Peace Reporting, and The Financial Times, the BBC interviewed witnesses whose accounts contradict the official Georgian version of events.

To date, no independent source has substantiated President Saakashvili’s claim that Russian troops began pouring across the frontier before Georgia launched its attack on 7 August. Strangely, Georgian authorities made no mention of this justification at the time, instead saying that the aim of their action was to “restore constitutional order” to South Ossetia.

Georgia also justified its offensive by claiming that it was responding to shelling of four Georgian villages on the evening of the attack. But another recent report, this time in The New York Times, cites independent western monitors who also dispute the official Georgian version of events.

Monitors from the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe said that they found no evidence to support the Georgian claim that its villages were under attack. Instead they accuse Georgia of a “completely indiscriminate and disproportionate attack”, characterized by intensive shell and rocket fire against civilian targets.

To be sure, much still remains unknown about the sequence of events that led to war. But as the true facts slowly emerge, they raise many questions not just about Georgia’s actions, but also about western policies towards the region, and how the conflict was presented to the western public.

One negative result has been widespread resentment against the West in Russia. That resentment is shared by many foreign investors, who privately rail against the perceived anti-Russian bias of western politicians and the western media. They will certainly welcome the trend towards more objective reporting and analysis.

Hopefully the US President-elect Barack Obama will also pay careful attention to the true facts and draw appropriate lessons, as he ponders the future of US relations with both Russia and Georgia.

----------------
But what a lovely stuff i've found there. here is the comment:
'DisappointedGeorgian', November 10, 2008 09:22 PM

First, uncle sam wanted us to test the ruskies. Then, they abandoned us to rot. Not enough? Now, they smeared our name as the genocide criminals. Thanks a lot uncle sam. You're quite an ally.

:eek:

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/blog/europeinsight/archives/2008/11/the_russia-geor.html

[dzerassa]

Do you really believe you ever get the truth in any of your major newspapersor or state controlled TV channels ?
.

about the ossetia-georgian war? we live here. it's ossetia. we don't need newspapers or tv channels, no matter who they belong

as for the economics, i understand nothing in it and i state just what i can see, russia is not in the reccession as they show about usa.

[Lucker]

Russia is in a disastrous situation as you will see over the next few months .
If you looked at our High Streets you would have no idea that technically we are in recession . We carried a permanent unemployment figure of around 1 million in the good years --- even lower for a time . Now it is approaching double that figure and could reach 3 million in 9 months , say .
Effects are similar to knocking over dominoes in slow motion . You see little to begin with but once things have begun , they cannot be halted .
Unless the G7 ,. G8 and G20 meetings come up with concerted action and sound innovative thinking , there is a strong possibility of Russian bankruptcy and a near certain ruble devaluation , regardless .
And if that is delivered by Mr Putin , it will be the only thing he has given the Russian people .

[Hoopy]

No one is as deaf as the person who will not listen.

[slkasop]

Or, if you want to hear it from a Russian.....

Turning Noodles Into Ammunition

12 November 2008By Yulia LatyninaLate in the evening on Nov. 4 in Chicago, Barack Obama addressed the American people after he won the U.S. presidential election. In his speech, Obama said one of the strengths of U.S. democracy is its ability to change.

Several hours later on Nov. 5 in Moscow, President Dmitry Medvedev gave his first state-of-the-nation address. He spoke not to the Russian people, but to a group of loyal politicians in the Kremlin's St. George Hall. Medvedev assured his colleagues that he was committed to the rule of law, and one minute later he proposed changing the Constitution.

What is the difference between the truth and a lie? If you say, "I follow the law" and do, in fact, obey the law, this is truth. But if you say, "I follow the law" but then jail former Yukos CEO Mikhail Khodorkovsky to usurp his company, that is a lie.

What is the difference between a closed society and an open one? Closed societies do not tolerate the opposition and freedom of the press, and they don't care much for government transparency or an open, competitive economy.

The first protest against the West's open society was in the late 19th century. That is when the indigenous people from the remote areas of Melanesia developed what came to be known as a "cargo cult." The cult's priests looked for an explanation as to why they were so poor and why the cursed people in the West lived so well. This is the best they could come up with: All of the West's technological wonders (or "cargo," as the priests termed it) had actually been invented by spiritual means long ago by the Melanesians, and the Westerners had simply stolen the cargo during delivery.

The second and far more serious response to open society was communism. Stalin wanted to conquer the whole world. Under Stalin, Soviet factories manufactured one of two things -- tanks or steel for tanks. As late as the 1970s, Soviet factories made macaroni noodles with a diameter -- or "caliber" -- of 7.62 millimeters so that if war broke out, the machinery in the noodle factory could quickly be adapted to manufacture ammunition.

The Soviet Union spent as much as 80 percent of its gross national product on the military and defense-related industries. But it turned out that the Soviet economy could not compete with the open societies in the West in terms of innovation, growth, productivity and standard of living.

And now we have the third wave of opposition to open society. It is coming from quasi-totalitarian countries such as Venezuela, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Libya and Russia. They are so wealthy from oil and gas exports that their leaders don't have to worry too much about making good or wise decisions. Like the Melanesian priests, these quasi-totalitarian leaders claim that they -- and not the cursed white people of the West -- have real freedom and a true understanding of peace. And since these regimes are swimming in petrodollars, their leaders make speeches about "true freedoms" while wearing expensive suits that are designed, manufactured and tailored in the West. You won't see them addressing the nation standing barefoot in the sand under a banana tree.

In contrast to outright totalitarian regimes, the quasi-totalitarian regimes do not pose a real danger to the free world. That is why nobody worries much if one of their presidents gives an inflammatory speech about deploying Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad. After all, who believes that the leaders of these regimes would ever launch a missile attack against a Western nation in which their luxurious villas and bank accounts are located?

Nonetheless, I hope that quasi-totalitarian regimes won't last forever. And I also hope one day to hear a speech by a Russian version of Obama -- a president chosen by the people who will speak the real truth about freedom in our country.

[bobbyd]

We will struggle through a global recession. Some countries will be less affected than others but Russia - like the US and England - are feeling the pain. In case no one has noticed the price of a barrel of oil has dropped significantly over the last 6 weeks therefore an oil producing country such as Russia will see a drop in profits. Not rocket science.

I watched a British documentary last night that claimed the Russians did not cross the border until 2 days after the Georgian tanks were annihiliated. There was no mention of where the "rebel" armoury came from.

[dzerassa]

There was no mention of where the "rebel" armoury came from.


which armoury? just a couple example please?

[dzerassa]

Or, if you want to hear it from a Russian.....

Turning Noodles Into Ammunition

12 November 2008By Yulia LatyninaLate in the evening on Nov. 4 in Chicago, Barack Obama addressed the American people after he won the U.S. presidential election. In his speech, Obama said one of the strengths of U.S. democracy is its ability to change.

Several hours later on Nov. 5 in Moscow, President Dmitry Medvedev gave his first state-of-the-nation address. He spoke not to the Russian people, but to a group of loyal politicians in the Kremlin's St. George Hall. Medvedev assured his colleagues that he was committed to the rule of law, and one minute later he proposed changing the Constitution.

What is the difference between the truth and a lie? If you say, "I follow the law" and do, in fact, obey the law, this is truth. But if you say, "I follow the law" but then jail former Yukos CEO Mikhail Khodorkovsky to usurp his company, that is a lie.

What is the difference between a closed society and an open one? Closed societies do not tolerate the opposition and freedom of the press, and they don't care much for government transparency or an open, competitive economy.

The first protest against the West's open society was in the late 19th century. That is when the indigenous people from the remote areas of Melanesia developed what came to be known as a "cargo cult." The cult's priests looked for an explanation as to why they were so poor and why the cursed people in the West lived so well. This is the best they could come up with: All of the West's technological wonders (or "cargo," as the priests termed it) had actually been invented by spiritual means long ago by the Melanesians, and the Westerners had simply stolen the cargo during delivery.

The second and far more serious response to open society was communism. Stalin wanted to conquer the whole world. Under Stalin, Soviet factories manufactured one of two things -- tanks or steel for tanks. As late as the 1970s, Soviet factories made macaroni noodles with a diameter -- or "caliber" -- of 7.62 millimeters so that if war broke out, the machinery in the noodle factory could quickly be adapted to manufacture ammunition.

The Soviet Union spent as much as 80 percent of its gross national product on the military and defense-related industries. But it turned out that the Soviet economy could not compete with the open societies in the West in terms of innovation, growth, productivity and standard of living.

And now we have the third wave of opposition to open society. It is coming from quasi-totalitarian countries such as Venezuela, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Libya and Russia. They are so wealthy from oil and gas exports that their leaders don't have to worry too much about making good or wise decisions. Like the Melanesian priests, these quasi-totalitarian leaders claim that they -- and not the cursed white people of the West -- have real freedom and a true understanding of peace. And since these regimes are swimming in petrodollars, their leaders make speeches about "true freedoms" while wearing expensive suits that are designed, manufactured and tailored in the West. You won't see them addressing the nation standing barefoot in the sand under a banana tree.

In contrast to outright totalitarian regimes, the quasi-totalitarian regimes do not pose a real danger to the free world. That is why nobody worries much if one of their presidents gives an inflammatory speech about deploying Iskander missiles in Kaliningrad. After all, who believes that the leaders of these regimes would ever launch a missile attack against a Western nation in which their luxurious villas and bank accounts are located?

Nonetheless, I hope that quasi-totalitarian regimes won't last forever. And I also hope one day to hear a speech by a Russian version of Obama -- a president chosen by the people who will speak the real truth about freedom in our country.


yulia latynina is just a chatterbox. she always knows everything. she comments on everything and she is such a defender of our oigarkhs, even those who became famous after their parties in france.

[Lucker]

I am glad you are still following matters , Jurassic , even though you got lost in the forest a long way back .

I am sure you remember I told you last week that the US signalled to Russia that it could now talk positively to them . It did that by drawing a temporary line under the invasion of Georgia by allowing apparently conciliatory srticles to be circulated --- just one , actually , which lots of different people used with appropriate small differences .
I noticed you and your gang avoided my comments totally .
Now , what happened yesterday after the G20 meeting ?
This is what Medvedev said ,
"We believe he ( Obama) will act to overcome problems that have accumulated recently in our relations which have been extremely extensive , rich and rather complex .
I can admit that recently we have experienced a crisis of confidence . There is no trust in Russian -US relations , the trust we need ."
Game . Set . And Match .

And incidentally this is the state of your present home crisis which publicly does not exist !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Medvedev has told police to use force where needed to crush civil . unrest --- a Russian newspaper report and a very brave one .

[dzerassa]

Can someone translate this for our western friends? This is an episode of parliarment committee of georgia investigating events in south ossetia. the person giving evidence is a georgian politician who was several months a georgian ambassador in russia. he says who is who, who started the war and who planned to start a war in abhazia

bTEJ7vFTEBg&feature=related

[dzerassa]

This is his interview to "Echo moskva". The guys' name is Erosi Kitsmarashvili. Slowly slowly even georgian politicians start saying truth. even in total lack of any democracy there.


VENEDIKTOV: We broadcast Eros Kitsmarishvili, who was the last ambassador of Georgia in Russia from February to April. Good morning, Eros!

E. KITSMARISHVILI: Good morning.

A. VENEDIKTOV: Today, all Russian newspapers and television yesterday and news agencies reported that happened in the parliamentary commission investigating the Georgian parliament on August events where you stood witness. I would like you to our listeners to clarify your position. The firs tissue - during the audience you have said that Georgia was ready to begin military action against Abkhazia in April 2004, and then against Abkhazia in April and May. As you are aware of this?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: Once again. I say that I was aware that in July and August could be the beginning of large military operations, actions in South Ossetia, and not in Abkhazia. Regarding the issue of Abkhazia, in April military actions there were seriously discussed.

A. VENEDIKTOV: But it was it the decision or just a discussion?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: No, if it was decided, it would have begun. It was a great discussion and it was a decision that has been designated a specific date. And according to my information, this date was - the beginning of May, it coincides with the inauguration, with some additional transitional period in Russian politics. And I just told yesterday that I spoke to Saakashvili that these actions could lead to disaster for Georgia. We may lose Abkhazia and the prospect of development of the country.

At that time my position, the position of the West, the position the Americans had been heard and Saakashvili changed his mind.

A. VENEDIKTOV: Tell me, please, can we say that at the moment around Saakashvili were several people who recommended different positions? Who was «hawks» in Saakashvili's surrounding, who insisted that military action?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: I do not want to speculate, because it seemed to me that there are both «hawks», and «doves». And a long time when I worked actively work to salvage the situation, it is an impossible mission, as later turned out that during May, June, July, seemed to me that I have allies, surrounded by Saakashvili, the people who think the way I I think. It turned out that these people were not there, or they were not heeded. Anyway, apart from me in Saakashvili's surrounding no offical publicly said what all Georgia knows, the entire West and all who were involved and monitoring know that it is Saakashvili who insisted, and began this action in Tshinvale that day.

A. VENEDIKTOV: Tell me, please, this is the decision of the president or the decision of the Security Council, headed by the president?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: I think it is his personal decision. That decision, according to my information, very close to the environment Saakashvili, was adopted last year, in November. But it deals specifically with areas of Abkhazia, then it changed the vector, because at some point these people thought that it was better to make a referral to Tshinvale. But this, with my accurate information, and was known in Russia. And Russia is actively preparing for confrontation and certain forces in Russia Saakashvili pushed to these actions in order to get there. What's got now.

A. VENEDIKTOV: Tell me you worked ...

E. KITSMARISHVILI: And the prospect of a long delay in many respects to Georgia.

A. VENEDIKTOV: You worked as ambassadors from February to April. And members of the commission have accused you that your cable from Moscow now, the fact that you are saying now was not.

E. KITSMARISHVILI: First, I am talking about events where I have not worked as ambassador. I say April. As for the May-June and charged this commission, these people spend their own living. The amount of work that I have served in Russia, known for both Russian and Georgian diplomats. In addition, the volume of my work for two months, a half months, I think, was evident. And the number of meetings organized and contacts with Saakashvili, as he passed the information I have, and what are the things surrounding it clearly known. So, it all sucked out of fingers. Moreover, the commission yesterday at the show showed their real face.

A. VENEDIKTOV: We will return to the commission. Tell me please, when Saakashvili was in June in St. Petersburg at the CIS summit, we talked with you, you said that you thought that find common points between President Saakashvili and Medvedev. You said that the main thing - it does not frighten off, it seems, they agreed. This is indeed the case?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: Yes. I thought then that this is happening. I did not speak and could not say this, but Medvedev looked much more confident, more prepared for issues related to Georgia, Saakashvili was more surfaces. This is not a compliment to President Medvedev. This reproach, and my resentment that an experienced president looks like. This is one. Second, that is precisely the work that we have with the Russian area of the Georgian diplomacy, then yielded results, Saakashvili acted not as bezobrazno as in a normal situation. And in that time have received some contact. And it seemed to me that this contact can be strengthened.

But the next day Saakashvili abruptly left during the night, did not give any positive message about his mood. It was still a lot of negative things. The most important thing was - that the prospect is found. When I say that we had in July, the reality that Medvedev could come on an official visit to Georgia, it seems to me that for diplomats to countries that are 4 years old spoke only the language of threats, it was a breakthrough. There could be a breakthrough.

A. VENEDIKTOV: Eros, and that prevented it establish contact, how do you think?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: I think the nerves, waiting, patience from a particular president is not enough to calm a multi-year process to do. I am referring to Saakashvili. On the other hand, in Moscow sat counter-players who do not want this to happen. They have done everything in their power. In the Neighborhood Sahakashvili that prove to me that Russian does not take in the event of operations in Tshinvale and Abkhazia, clearly sat people who worked for the secret service of your country. According to another can not be. Or maybe they merge, or they were clearly ... That is, in the very near surroundings Saakashvili.

[dzerassa]

A. VENEDIKTOV: Come to August 7. You witness with the Georgian side, I am in Moscow. How do you see that sdetonirovalo August 7, and why August 7, and who first went on 7 August?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: I said yesterday at the commission, you just did not give me to say the second half. I said that the Georgian political elite from time to time in the euphoria felt that the West and the United States supports them in this direction. And all my attempts to check it when I recheck it all was absolutely unrealistic. Condoleezza Rice's visit to Tbilisi on 9-10 July. After the meeting, and I've heard since the war began, those same guys, like Bokeria, said that Rice gave them the green light to the actions in Abkhazia.

I specifically went to Washington in September. And specifically communicated with [slur]. Unambiguously, categorically refused to do so. This is not on what I want someone to protect. I know that there sat Georgians. I discussed this with the Georgians and Americans. Unambiguously categorical «No». At that time, Saakashvili began exactly the race that led to the Aug. 7. And Russian knew about it well, because of the military exercises that took place in July, the concentration of those journalists who were sitting in Tshinvale, they knew the exact date. They pushed for this, that he made the move.

A. VENEDIKTOV: That is, to my understanding, Eros ... Now we turn to the position of Russia ... that the Russian side knew not only that Saakashvili will begin, but knew when starts.

E. KITSMARISHVILI: Yes, of course.

A. VENEDIKTOV: You worked in the February - April after, then you come to a meeting with Saakashvili. Tell me, please, from your point of view, to your knowledge, what was the position of Russia on what to do with Ossetia, Abkhazia and Georgia in general?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: We were in transition. There is often discussed the transition from Bush to Obame. This situation has been in Moscow. In any case, waiting for the liberalization and a lot of positive processes of democratization of Russia, I have heard and we have discussed this many times, and you, too. I think that was a transitional period, and the team really has not been formed. Therefore, to say what someone that is understood at the time, it was difficult to have people from the old team were people who thought differently, but they have not yet come to power.

Therefore, I do not want to discuss Russian domestic politics, but we find ourselves in a situation where we have undermined the possibility of a new president to self-determination in this regard. That is, his team, I mean. I am very delicately want to deal with these things, because it is not my area of interest.

A. VENEDIKTOV: But in this case is the position which is transmitted so that Russia is protected from attack Georgia.

E. KITSMARISHVILI: I understand. But that's not my position. I said that I was told Russian diplomats, when there was talk of a decision by Putin on April 16, troops train and direct relations with Abkhazia, this was a preventive measure against the Georgian aggressive plans. It was the invasion of Abkhazia through Kadorskoe Valley, so this part was interpreted in that plane. I put the same sign of equality between Russia and Georgia. Both power, I do not mean people, because people do not want war. Both authorities have done everything possible to ensure that we have come to this story.

A. VENEDIKTOV: The history of this culminated in the recognition of South Ossetia and Abkhazia from Russia?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: This is also another step for poisoning much-year relationship.

A. VENEDIKTOV: Do something about your destiny talk. Some members accused you that you do unskilled work. And even the head of commission promised to contact the Office of General Prosecutor to examine your work. What is your future in Georgia, Eros?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: I think I will do everything. I belong to this problem very seriously, and if we have a mythology that is created about this war and the war in Abkhazia in 1993 or South Ossetia conflict, which occurred in the early 90's when we really do not look at the place If we do not punish people who do not condemn these people who blame at least in recent history, we can never really come to the Ossetians and Abkhaz and say that the offer to live in one country, in the same family. This is my first goal.

My second goal - is that the media in Georgia are in a position, after which there is no nothing against democracy. I think that freedom of speech and freedom of the media - this will be my main goal. If you need to do so, I will deal with politics, and social activities. But specifically, I know that I will do tomorrow. I am at the beginning of a month filed against Saakashvili's demand to return me back to my channel, which was my violently otnyat.

A. VENEDIKTOV: You mean «Imedia»?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: «Rustavi-2», which now controls the absolute Saakashvili. I begin to act in this direction. Lots of stories that will take place in Georgia, I will participate in this or initiate these events. And most importantly, I want pofilosofstvovat at the end, I am silent five years ago, one of the leaders of this revolution. Then I surrendered it all to politicians, silent and went to the side. No one had time to keep silence.

And in general, will never be silent. Truth must speak with any scenario. Even with such a complex when you nabrasyvayutsya those people who brought you to power. And accuse you of what they clearly can be charged. It is therefore necessary to fight. And I will fight.

A. VENEDIKTOV: whether you are the hope that Saakashvili earlier resigned and left politics?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: I do not think that is my primary objective or purpose of Georgia. Our main goal is not that needs to be done now Saakashvili, but that we want at all, where are we going and what our nearest five, ten, twenty vision of the future, we want to build this country. When we understand this, when we take control of the media, society will monitor the media to the extent that relies. I think this will happen in the very near future, then it will be possible to speak of honest, direct and free elections. And public opinion will be what should be the case with a liberal society.

Now Saakashvili, in his early resignation, we find ourselves in a situation in which we are beginning to wonder who will be next and that will be after him, which monitor it stretches. I do not want to discuss it now. I think that Georgia does not yet have such a clear leader who could alternatively today to say that we can replace that power and lead Georgia to another, the better. We have to prepare.

A. VENEDIKTOV: Thank you very much. I recall that on the air «Echo of Moscow» was Eros Kitsmarishvili, who headed the Georgian Embassy here from February to April. Eros, Thank you very much. Today it is completely out, of course.

E. KITSMARISHVILI: Thank you. It was interesting?

A. VENEDIKTOV: Yes, of course. If you need something - feel free to call, you have my phone, we all do.

[dzerassa]

Enjoy this article in New york times, guys :)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/world/europe/26georgia.html?_r=1

[Hoopy]

I see nothing in the interview you posted and this is a quote from the NY times article.

In his comments, the former diplomat said that Mr. Saakashvili was responding to Russian provocation, but that he had long been planning to take control of the enclaves, which won de facto independence from Georgia in fighting in the early 1990s.The fact that he had planned to take back Ossetia and Abkhazia does nothing to take away the fact that Russia started it.

[dzerassa]

Hoopy, did u read at least th title of the article?
here it is "Ex-Diplomat Says Georgia Started War With Russia"

[dzerassa]

Here is another quoate from it

"A former confidant of President Mikheil Saakashvili, Mr. Kitsmarishvili said Georgian officials told him in April that they planned to start a war in Abkhazia, one of two breakaway regions at issue in the war, and had received a green light from the United States government to do so. He said the Georgian government later decided to start the war in South Ossetia, the other region, and continue into Abkhazia."

[Hoopy]

Hoopy, did u read at least th title of the article?
here it is "Ex-Diplomat Says Georgia Started War With Russia"
Where does he say this?Planning to do something and doing it are two different things.

[dzerassa]

http://tarjimani.blogspot.com/

[dzerassa]

what he also said but it is not mantioned in the articles is that israeli specialists came to train georgians fot implementing this 'fast" attack

[dzerassa]

Where does he say this?Planning to do something and doing it are two different things.

read attentively his interview which i traslated through translator

[Hoopy]

Soldiers from other countries go everywhere to train other countries,Australian,Canadian special forces and lots of others are UK trained.Russia also sends "military advisors" to other countries.

[dzerassa]

Specially for Hoopy


E. KITSMARISHVILI: I do not want to speculate, because it seemed to me that there are both «hawks», and «doves». And a long time when I worked actively work to salvage the situation, it is an impossible mission, as later turned out that during May, June, July, seemed to me that I have allies, surrounded by Saakashvili, the people who think the way I I think. It turned out that these people were not there, or they were not heeded. Anyway, apart from me in Saakashvili's surrounding no offical publicly said what all Georgia knows, the entire West and all who were involved and monitoring know that it is Saakashvili who insisted, and began this action in Tshinvale that day.


A. VENEDIKTOV: Tell me, please, this is the decision of the president or the decision of the Security Council, headed by the president?

E. KITSMARISHVILI: I think it is his personal decision. That decision, according to my information, very close to the environment Saakashvili, was adopted last year, in November. But it deals specifically with areas of Abkhazia, then it changed the vector, because at some point these people thought that it was better to make a referral to Tshinvale. But this, with my accurate information, and was known in Russia. And Russia is actively preparing for confrontation and certain forces in Russia Saakashvili pushed to these actions in order to get there. What's got now.

[Lucker]

It's total Bull Shit .
The Head Line is irrelevant .All writers look for snappy eye catching words .
It is the first trick you learn --- pull them in with your head line .
The rest is Heresay evidence which is inadmissable in any court of Law .
You are lovely Jurassic but perhaps somewhat gullible .
I notice your fellow FSB Officer returned to do brief battle but we sent her away with a flea in her knickers --- FSB Bull Sliver .

[dzerassa]

It's total Bull Shit .
The Head Line is irrelevant .All writers look for snappy eye catching words .
It is the first trick you learn --- pull them in with your head line .
The rest is Heresay evidence which is inadmissable in any court of Law .
You are lovely Jurassic but perhaps somewhat gullible .
I notice your fellow FSB Officer returned to do brief battle but we sent her away with a flea in her knickers --- FSB Bull Sliver .

whatch the video, u will see how the georgians scream at this guy "traitor" 'cause he said something against what they wanted to hear

[dzerassa]

All writers look for snappy eye catching words .
.

out of nothing?

[Lucker]

out of nothing?

I am afraid so --- both sides .
I appreciate you are convinced you have " found " the truth but be aware that your State and Security Services are spending a small fortune on "Spin " at the moment , just as they did from the beginning of August when they started whipping up feelings against Georgians in Russia , and then right through the invasions .
There is considerable fighting in Dagestan and Chechnya at the moment and far more than is getting through to the Russian media . It is not beyond possibility that many more Russian forces will have to be moved into these areas .
Also note the continuing troubles in Ossetia which Russia and the puppet SO Governor are blaming on Georgians .
The truth here is not clear but this is probably resulting from incursions by Inguishetian freedom fighters with FSB officers also involved . As they were in both Ossetias in August .

Now stop for a moment , Jurassic .
Putin needs a reason to take back the Presidency and containment of alleged breakdowns in the North Caucasus might be an ideal pretext .
There is a History of FSB strategists isolating an ethnic minority and using the threat of their rebellion as a signal for invasion and punishment . They have done it twice with Chechnya and most recently with Georgia and Georgian territories . I think you will find that your Security Services will keep things bubbling in this area , though extremist Islam Jihadists might take matters into their own hands .
Keep watching and Boris Bomb Blogger will keep you up to date . .

[sliver]

yulia latynina is just a chatterbox.

latynina, novodvorskaya, kasparov, nemtsov, etc.. nice people ) so called 'the fifth column' that is they are fed from outside (read: by the department of state)
if latynina's pic seemed to you halloween.. then how do you like novodvorskaya?
http://www.dog.ru/graphics/dogs_preview/001/106650_dog.breeder.ru.jpg

like latynina she is a flirt girl, isn't she? :rolleyes:

[Lucker]

GG look at that !!
Undiluted discrimination .
It's not the woman's fault that she is fat and unattractive . Sh'e Russian !!!!!!!!! ROFL

[sliver]

GG look at that !!
Undiluted discrimination .
It's not the woman's fault that she is fat and unattractive . Sh'e Russian !!!!!!!!! ROFL

yep, she is russian fed with u.s. fast food. it depends on who pays her salary )))

[Sveta's Hero]

yep, she is russian fed with u.s. fast food. it depends on who pays her salary )))


What, no Macdonalds in Moscow?:eek:

[sliver]

What, no Macdonalds in Moscow?:eek:

waiting, read between lines.. there was another sense there
the clue is salary.. that is who is employer

[Sveta's Hero]

waiting, read between lines.. there was another sense there
the clue is salary.. that is who is employer


I got it. I was just plugging Mickey D's to help boost the economy.:becky:

[Lucker]

Rights Group Says S. Ossetia Militias Are 'Running Wild'
27 November 2008TBILISI, Georgia -- Russia must take immediate steps to stop South Ossetian militias "running wild" in a mainly Georgian-populated corner of the breakaway region, a human rights watchdog said Wednesday.

Human Rights Watch said it had documented attacks and harassment by militias against ethnic Georgians in Akhalgori and surrounding villages more than three months after Russia drove Georgian forces from South Ossetia in a five-day war.

"South Ossetian militias are running wild, attacking ethnic Georgians in Akhalgori," Tanya Lokshina, deputy director of the watchdog's Moscow office, said in a statement. "It is high time for Russia to step up to its responsibilities as an occupying power in South Ossetia and rein them in."

The Akhalgori district sits in the southeastern corner of South Ossetia but is mainly populated by Georgians and continued to be administered by Tbilisi after the rest of South Ossetia threw off Georgian rule in the early 1990s.

Russian and South Ossetian forces pushed into the district after the August war, when Russia intervened to halt a Georgian military bid to retake the region. Russia and Georgia have traded accusations of human rights abuses since the war. Tbilisi says several thousand Georgians have fled Akhalgori. Journalists are barred from entering the district from the Georgian side.

In an incident documented by Human Rights Watch, an elderly Georgian man was severely beaten by militiamen when he tried to stop them from taking his sheep. He died in a hospital in Tbilisi, and when he was buried near Akhalgori armed militiamen turned up at the funeral and harassed the mourners.

Hospital workers said they had treated an 83-year-old man after he was beaten by four Ossetians dressed in camouflage because he had a photograph of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili on the wall of his home.

Human Rights Watch researchers said rumors that Russian forces might close the de facto border to the local population had caused panic and many residents were leaving.

Continuing ethnic cleansing which you ignore .

[slkasop]

What, no Macdonalds in Moscow?:eek:

Actually, I think that the sign just outside Red Square says that it is 50 meters away. No need to plug, there were at least two Golden Arches with drive through windows that I saw.

[dzerassa]

Rights Group Says S. Ossetia Militias Are 'Running Wild'
27 November 2008TBILISI, Georgia -- Russia must take immediate steps to stop South Ossetian militias "running wild" in a mainly Georgian-populated corner of the breakaway region, a human rights watchdog said Wednesday.

Human Rights Watch said it had documented attacks and harassment by militias against ethnic Georgians in Akhalgori and surrounding villages more than three months after Russia drove Georgian forces from South Ossetia in a five-day war.

"South Ossetian militias are running wild, attacking ethnic Georgians in Akhalgori," Tanya Lokshina, deputy director of the watchdog's Moscow office, said in a statement. "It is high time for Russia to step up to its responsibilities as an occupying power in South Ossetia and rein them in."

The Akhalgori district sits in the southeastern corner of South Ossetia but is mainly populated by Georgians and continued to be administered by Tbilisi after the rest of South Ossetia threw off Georgian rule in the early 1990s.

Russian and South Ossetian forces pushed into the district after the August war, when Russia intervened to halt a Georgian military bid to retake the region. Russia and Georgia have traded accusations of human rights abuses since the war. Tbilisi says several thousand Georgians have fled Akhalgori. Journalists are barred from entering the district from the Georgian side.

In an incident documented by Human Rights Watch, an elderly Georgian man was severely beaten by militiamen when he tried to stop them from taking his sheep. He died in a hospital in Tbilisi, and when he was buried near Akhalgori armed militiamen turned up at the funeral and harassed the mourners.

Hospital workers said they had treated an 83-year-old man after he was beaten by four Ossetians dressed in camouflage because he had a photograph of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili on the wall of his home.

Human Rights Watch researchers said rumors that Russian forces might close the de facto border to the local population had caused panic and many residents were leaving.

Continuing ethnic cleansing which you ignore .

it's terrible if it happens. should be stopped definately.

by the way do u know how many refugees r in north ossetia from those parts of south ossetia which from 1990-ies were controled by georgians? like leninogori for example? do u know why they run away from there? maybe 'cause they were very well treated? and by the way, don't u think that all property of the ossetians who escaped from there was taken by the villagers-georgians? probably some now try to return to their houses which r occupied? just a suggestion. i really don't know about this particular part of south osseia but know that it very likely can be.

[Lucker]

Jurassic , I appreciate your thought and I cannot give you an answer that is categorically right .
But , as far as I am aware , the whole area has been effectively cleansed of Georgians . It seems that to the greater extent the Russian army turned the other way and the "scorched Earth" policy was carried out by pro Russian ,South Ossetians , backed by Ingusettian and Chechen fighters . Huge numbers of Chechen fighters were used because Kadyrov refused to pay them unless they fought .

Now these factions are turning on the Russian Army and the huge number of FSB personnel that are there . The whole area is very , very fragile and , ultimately , extremist Islamists will probably dictate the next steps . imo

[dzerassa]

Jurassic , I appreciate your thought and I cannot give you an answer that is categorically right .
But , as far as I am aware , the whole area has been effectively cleansed of Georgians . It seems that to the greater extent the Russian army turned the other way and the "scorched Earth" policy was carried out by pro Russian ,South Ossetians , backed by Ingusettian and Chechen fighters . Huge numbers of Chechen fighters were used because Kadyrov refused to pay them unless they fought .

Now these factions are turning on the Russian Army and the huge number of FSB personnel that are there . The whole area is very , very fragile and , ultimately , extremist Islamists will probably dictate the next steps . imo

i don't know anything about islamics.

as for the cleansing, the area u mentioned in previous posts is not cleansed from georgians. georgians live there but now that it is agian part of ossetia ossetians who were thrown out of there can return there

[Lucker]

Why would they return?
Unless they enjoy having their house burnt and being given a friendly beating
You better learn about the Islamists as it is just a matter of time before they take the North Caucasus from the apostates ( Russians)

[dzerassa]

Why would they return?
Unless they enjoy having their house burnt and being given a friendly beating
You better learn about the Islamists as it is just a matter of time before they take the North Caucasus from the apostates ( Russians)

romashka, ossetian christmas rifles r booked for u :)

[Lucker]

Seems I will have to bite the bullet . But if I wear my Captain Fantastico suit , I will be OK

[dzerassa]

Why would they return?
Unless they enjoy having their house burnt and being given a friendly beating
You better learn about the Islamists as it is just a matter of time before they take the North Caucasus from the apostates ( Russians)

ok mr. expert, tell me please your opinion on the recent killing in chechnya

[Lucker]

Which killing ? They are occurring almost daily now ?
Are you referring to the one about a week ago when the Russian Press reported one death when the true figure was nearer 20?
Or did you mean the killing of Vitaly Karayev , the mayor of Vladikavkaz , On Wednesday .
They are all committed by extreme Islamists though in the latter they were Ossetian .

[dzerassa]

Which killing ? They are occurring almost daily now ?
Are you referring to the one about a week ago when the Russian Press reported one death when the true figure was nearer 20?
Or did you mean the killing of Vitaly Karayev , the mayor of Vladikavkaz , On Wednesday .
They are all committed by extreme Islamists though in the latter they were Ossetian .

karaev by islamists ? most odd idea

no i meant murder of 6 ladies in grozniy. they were shot dead

[Lucker]

Same . Extreme Islamists.
The appalling face of a total misunderstanding of religious precepts .
But the apostates don't exactly help matters .When young men disappear into the mountains to join up with the freedom fighters , their family homes are burnt etc .
Not really very good Public Relations !!!!!

[dzerassa]

Same . Extreme Islamists.
The appalling face of a total misunderstanding of religious precepts .
But the apostates don't exactly help matters .When young men disappear into the mountains to join up with the freedom fighters , their family homes are burnt etc .
Not really very good Public Relations !!!!!

yes? and i heard they were shot for misbahiviour. that's real extremists did in my opinion, if true

[Lucker]

Almost certainly true .
All for alleged Adultery which we know from other countries can simply result from a man registering a complaint .

[sliver]

dzerassa, i've found brilliant article for you (at National Interest, USA). you'll never believe.. it's written by Tsotne Bakuria! unbelievable..! :eek:


Saakashvili’s Charade
by Tsotne Bakuria

11.21.2008

For two tense days in August, all communication in the country Georgia was down. Georgian citizens did not know that President Mikheil Saakashvili had ordered his woefully inept “army” to begin shelling the country’s Russian-backed separatist region of South Ossetia.

As a result of the unprovoked and unwise attack, former–Russian President Vladimir Putin had very harsh words for the Georgian president, while Saakashvili’s public-relations machinery immediately went into overdrive trying to sell the “David vs Goliath” scenario to his own people as well as the media. Even more bizarre (given the current credit crunch and financial turbulence in America), this tiny country managed to secure a $4.5 million bailout from the United States taxpayers.

Bailing out Wall Street and Detroit are one thing, but to ask Americans to financially support Saakashvili’s recklessness is a new low. And the truth of Saakahsvili’s self-destructive actions is finally emerging. In recent days, the New York Times, the BBC and Human Rights Watch have all reported investigative stories showing that U.S.-armed and -trained Georgian troops attacked unarmed civilians in the sleeping city of Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. Initially, the State Department defended Saakashvili’s actions, but now has reversed that stance and has condemned the attack.

Figures in the international community have commented on Saakashvili’s erratic behavior. British Foreign Secretary David Miliband called the Georgian government “reckless” for its military actions, and the European Union has formed a commission to investigate Saakashvili’s behavior to determine whether international laws were violated.

Recent events seem to confirm this take on Saakashvili’s character. During the five-day skirmish, the Georgian president continued to lie to his countrymen, abandoned the French foreign minister, was filmed ducking for cover under fictional bomber planes, and before a televised interview, seen eating his necktie on the air.

What is not amusing is Saakashvili’s indiscriminate use of military force against innocent civilians and Russian peacekeepers and the fact that Georgia’s territorial integrity will never be restored. In a report by international monitors, there is no doubt that Saakashvili provoked Russia and was itching not only for a fight, but also for American military support and approval. Afterward, he suggested Senator John McCain egged him on.

The president’s judgment has been called into question, as well as his ability to stabilize his crumbling government. A week ago, while Americans were celebrating a new president-elect, more than ten thousand Georgian citizens stood before the Parliament building demanding Saakashvili’s resignation.

There is no free media in the country, Saakashvili’s cabinet is in shambles, and he fired all his top military advisers as a result of the South Ossetian war. There is little chance that American aid money will actually reach any South Ossetians, whose homes and schools were destroyed. Corruption in Georgia is rampant, despite Saakashvili’s promise to make the country a beacon of democracy.

Tbilisi’s jails are overflowing with political prisoners arrested on trumped-up charges. The legal system is draconic, with the president handpicking judges. Families have been broken, dissidents have been killed—or they just disappear without a trace. The best and the brightest have fled the country, seeking a better life.

It is time for Georgians to wake up. The president has kept his own people in the dark for too long. Americans should support Senator Hillary Clinton’s bill to hold congressional hearings to determine the causes of the war—and to decide how much longer to keep bailing out Saakashvili for his own mistakes.


Tsotne Bakuria, a former Member of Parliament from Georgia, is a senior fellow at the Global International Strategic Group in Washington, DC.
http://www.nationalinterest.org/Article.aspx?id=20280

[dzerassa]

sliver thanks a lot, really great article. I do beleive 'cause i know it waslike that. the main thing is to convince hoopy and romashka. which is unlikely though i promised hoopy to buy all his friges and promised romashka christmass rifles :)